OOC Chat

[Kafen]

Init arguments are old as the game itself. However, the burden here rests squarly on the side of the GM to give the players a chance to change targets since it his style of posting that prevents us from doing something which tabletop players take for granted...which is acting in the correct order of init which includes the abiltiy to change targets.

[JadedDM]

Nope! I'm afraid you are wrong, Kafen. According to the DMG, page 54 under "The Combat Sequence" it reads:

Within a combat round, there is a set series of steps that must be followed. These steps are:

1. The DM decides what actions the monsters or NPCs will take, including casting spells (if any).
2. The players indicate what their characters will do, including casting spells (if any).
3. Initiative is determined.
4. Attacks are made in order of initiative.

These steps are followed until the combat ends--either one side is defeated, surrenders, or runs away.

So you see, a 'summary post' as you put it, is exactly how the game is supposed to be played. Everyone states an action and rolls initiative, the DM determines who goes first, second, third, etc., and then the combat round is resolved by order of said initiative. I am not breaking any rules whatsoever.

Show me where in the books (please cite a page number and which book) it says players can change targets after step 3 has been made. I assure you, you won't find any such reference.

[Kafen]

Alright, I am fine with using the full init rules. However, I want to see you post your monster actions posted independent of your summary if that is the case. Since you are using the "full rules". We will want to make sure you are using the same rules you are holding us to. Of course, it means you have to post first when you start the combat and state their intentions including both movement and attacks since the GM goes before the players.

[JadedDM]

I can post party NPC actions ahead of time, if you all wish. I will not, however, post enemy actions ahead of time. That would give the party an unfair advantage if they knew what the enemy was going to do before they even did it.

We will want to make sure you are using the same rules you are holding us to.

Are you insinuating I cannot be trusted to follow my own rules, Kafen? That's a pretty heavy accusation.

[Jenara]

I am getting fed up with this, I am going to bed.

I thought this was supposed to be fun.

[Kafen]

Not insinuating anything, you are trying to hold us to ungainly init rules and costing players rounds of actions due to your posting summary which is outside the scope of the "rules" you quoted. If you are going to do it, you might as well treat yourself to the same rules that you are forcing on us. :/

Dude, you need to relax and step back - take a breath and throw the damned rulebook out the window for like two seconds. Stop and look at the game, nobody is having fun dancing around your inability to allow people to change targets DUE TO YOUR POSTING STYLE. It is your style which is causing us to lose actions - just give us this one thing. I realize that you love the rules. It is time to let relax them while gaming online, however.

It is not like we are asking you to play 4e/5e. Geesh..

[Kafen]

Player Determination: Next, the players give a general indication of what their
characters are planning to do. This does not have to be perfectly precise and can be
changed somewhat if the DM decides that circumstances warrant.
If the characters are battling goblins, a player can say, "My fighter will attack" without
announcing which goblin he will strike. If the characters are battling a mixed group of
goblins and ogres, the player has to state whether his character is attacking goblins or
ogres.
Spells to be cast must also be announced at this time and cannot be changed once the
initiative die is rolled. In any situation where the abilities of a character could make a
difference, a clear description must be given.
Before moving on, the DM will make sure he has a clear idea of not only what the
player characters are doing, but also what actions any hirelings and henchmen are taking.
Once he has a clear view of everything that's likely to happen, the DM can overrule any
announced action that violates the rules (or in the case of an NPC, is out of character).
He is not required to overrule an impossible action, but he can let a character attempt it
anyway, knowing full well the character cannot succeed. It is not the DM's position to
advise players on the best strategies, most intelligent actions, or optimum maneuvers for
their characters.
Initiative: In the third step, dice are rolled to determine initiative, according to the
rules for initiative.
Resolution: In the last step, PCs, NPCs, and monsters make their attacks, spells occur,
and any other actions are resolved according to the order of initiative.
The above sequence is not immutable. Indeed, some monsters violate the standard
sequence, and some situations demand the application of common sense. In these cases
the DM's word is final.

=======================

It would appear that you are wrong, actually. We can simply declare that we attack. Thankfully, you follow the rules. So, we know that you will apply the generic attack in the future.

[JadedDM]

I'm sorry, Kafen, but what exactly in that blurb proves your point? Because I'm not seeing where it says players can change their actions after the round has already started.

[Kafen]

The section on common sense is where you want to look at the end, methinks. It says that... "and some situations demand the application of common sense. In these cases the DM's word is final." ....which leaves us asking you to use some common sense and shift targets as per the first section which states that we only have to... "Next, the players give a general indication of what their characters are planning to do. This does not have to be perfectly precise and can be changed somewhat if the DM decides that circumstances warrant." ...at which point, the players should expect that you apply the rolls and attacks to another target of the same species without having to beg for it in OOC due to common sense. Of course, you can simply say that you do not care, want to waste the attacks, and force us to fight in extended battles on a partial quote while hoping that your players are somehow enjoying the rules lawyering that you are demanding for something as simple as init.

[JadedDM]

"Some situations" it says. Not all situations. I believe that refers to unusual circumstances that go beyond what the authors of the book could have anticipated. And it also says "The DM's word is final."

Note the second quote you offer ends with "...if the DM decides that circumstances warrant."

Also, that's not what ruleslawyer means, by the way. Ruleslawyering is when a player demands that certain rules be ignored or followed when they work out in their own best interest (for example: insisting that the critical miss rules be used when an enemy rolls a natural 1, but then insisting that they be ignored when the player him/herself rolls a natural 1). The DM cannot ruleslawyer, because his word is final on everything. He can follow the rules, he can ignore them, he can make up new ones, he can change them. That's his right and prerogative. And if the players don't like it, they are free to find other games.

Speaking of which, you keep insisting that the other players are not having fun in my games, but you are the only one speaking out against this in such a manner. I'm not hearing anyone else say that not being allowed to change their targets in the last second is destroying their fun of the game (in this game, or any of the games I currently run; I use the same style and system in all of my games, by the way).

It's ironic you claim I am only following a partial quote, when that's exactly what you are offering. In any case, unless you can offer me something more concrete or the rest of the group speaks up alongside you, I'm inclined to close the discussion on this for the time being.

[Kafen]

I just posted the parts you left out, actually. The other players are new to the game and need to see what you did not post for them.

Simply put, you choose to not apply common sense to something that is simple. I do not understand your decision. In any case, my Kender will make generic attacks as per the rules and force you to abide by your obession with the rulebooks.

[JadedDM]

The other players are new to the game? That is news to me. Admittedly, I cannot speak for Nuke (I don't know what his experiences are), but I was under the impression that Jenara, Jerrard, and Breila have all been playing 2nd Edition for years now. Even if that's not true, the three of them have been gaming with me in Planet with 2E for over a year and a half now. So they are hardly newbies.

And while Horizon is absent for the moment, she's been gaming with me for almost 10 years now. So I know she's not new.

I'm sorry if you don't understand my decision, but I did explain it to you before. Combat is an abstraction. One cannot apply 'common sense' to an abstraction, because by definition, an abstraction defies common sense! For instance, you know what else is an abstraction? Hit points! If you apply common sense to HP, then if you get stabbed with a sword or shot with an arrow or set on fire, shouldn't you die? Shouldn't you at least be terribly injured with broken bones and internal bleeding instead of just losing 1d8 HP? Why is it that a person with only 1 HP left can still fight just as well as someone who has full HP? Why is it someone can get stabbed in the arm but still fight with that arm with no penalty? Why is it if a person is wounded, they are not required to clean the wound or bandage it? Why does nobody ever suffer from infections and have to get their limbs amputated?

Because it's an abstraction. That's why. It's not meant to be taken literally.

You see, in 2E, a single combat round lasts a whole minute. They changed this in later editions, making rounds only a few seconds long under the reasoning, "It takes me a whole minute just to swing my sword once? That's stupid! Let's apply some common sense here!" and not understanding it's an abstraction. No, it does not take a single minute to swing your sword once. But the game assumes that in that one minute of combat, lots of things are happening that are not being described. That you and your opponents are constantly hacking and slashing, blocking and parrying, and when your turn comes up that just means you see an opening and you take it. It takes time to find that opening, though!

And this is the crux of the matter. If you target Enemy A, then what you are doing is trying to find an opening in Enemy A's guard so you can make your attack. You are dodging, swinging, maneuvering, getting into place, blocking, and so forth. Then, when the time comes (when it is your turn), you make your attack roll.

But, if Enemy A goes down before you have a chance to make that attack, you cannot just spin around and attack someone else--because you have not found an opening yet on your new target. As I said, it takes time to find an opening.

Some warriors are so skilled, they're able to spot an opening in the enemy's defenses more than once per round. That's where multiple attacks come from.

If none of that makes any sense to you, then...well, there's really nothing more I can say on the matter without repeating myself.

[Kafen]

The rules remain on my side, we can use generic attacks as per the rules. I am not sure what there is to talk about at this point. The rules are clear on it.

[Kafen]

Player Determination: Next, the players give a general indication of what their
characters are planning to do. This does not have to be perfectly precise and can be
changed somewhat if the DM decides that circumstances warrant.
If the characters are battling goblins, a player can say, "My fighter will attack" without
announcing which goblin he will strike. If the characters are battling a mixed group of
goblins and ogres, the player has to state whether his character is attacking goblins or
ogres.
Spells to be cast must also be announced at this time and cannot be changed once the
initiative die is rolled. In any situation where the abilities of a character could make a
difference, a clear description must be given.
Before moving on, the DM will make sure he has a clear idea of not only what the
player characters are doing, but also what actions any hirelings and henchmen are taking.
Once he has a clear view of everything that's likely to happen, the DM can overrule any
announced action that violates the rules (or in the case of an NPC, is out of character).
He is not required to overrule an impossible action, but he can let a character attempt it
anyway, knowing full well the character cannot succeed. It is not the DM's position to
advise players on the best strategies, most intelligent actions, or optimum maneuvers for
their characters.
Initiative: In the third step, dice are rolled to determine initiative, according to the
rules for initiative.
Resolution: In the last step, PCs, NPCs, and monsters make their attacks, spells occur,
and any other actions are resolved according to the order of initiative.
The above sequence is not immutable. Indeed, some monsters violate the standard
sequence, and some situations demand the application of common sense. In these cases
the DM's word is final.

=======================

It would appear that you are wrong, actually. We can simply declare that we attack. Thankfully, you follow the rules. So, we know that you will apply the generic attack in the future.

This is the only wall of text you will need to worry about, Jaded.

[JadedDM]

(OOC: for future reference, would a "Destroy Water" spell (Reverse of Create Water) dispel the acid?)

That's...a really good question. I'm not sure, I'll have to do some research on that.

Of course, the acid evaporates on its own in 1d6 rounds anyway, but it could be a useful thing to know. I'll get back to you on that.