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Garhkal wrote:

So if say the party's all ave l7, and the hench is l4, is that iyo too far away to 'compete' with the PCs?

No, I'd say a few levels isn't an issue. Usually the various members of the party are within +/- 2-3 levels of one another. But when the henchman is 5 or 6 or 7 levels lower, or he's at half the levels of the lowest level PC, that's just ridiculous. He's the water boy then.

I didn't get it from anywhere. It has always happened that way organically in my campaign. Fighter followers are more likely to follow fighters. Acolytes follow priests. Apprentices follow wizards. Etc. Sure a wizard might hire a fighter to be the front line, etc. But generally the most prominent active followers are of the same class as their PC leader. Again - not a rule, just something I find happens more often than not.

As for whether or not they "can compete". I just don't really care. So what if they die again?

Tiger

Strange. Most games i have seen people take henchmen, its NOT been the same as their own class. Such as our bard getting a psion healer as a hench, or that same bard getting a gnoll fighter hench..

The issue of followers/henchmen/hirelings has always been confusing to a large degree. For example, looking at the 2E PHB, we see that each class gains different sorts of followers:

Fighters gain followers at 9th level. They gain a single 5th,6th, or 7th level leader, a group of anywhere from 10-40 troops, and an elite bodyguard unit of 10-30 1st or 2nd level followers. So anywhere from 21 - 71 followers. The fighter gains an average of 42 followers.

Rangers gain followers at 10th level. The ranger gets 2d6 followers. He has about a 60% chance on the chart to gain animal followers. For the human or demihuman followers listed (rangers, fighters, druids, etc.) there is not level given for any of them. The ranger gains an average of 7 followers.

Paladins don't attract followers at all (which I find unusual). His henchmen can only be LG alignment.

Wizards apparently do not attract followers. The 2E PHB is silent on the matter.

Priests/Clerics gain tons of followers! At 8th level, they gain 20-200 followers, all 0th level fighters. The cleric gains an average of 110 followers.

Druids gain 3 followers (druids only) at 12th level, and the level of the followers depends on how experienced the druid is compared to the other 12th level druids in the area. Arch-druids (13th level) likewise gain 3 druids of 10th level. Great druids (14th level) gain 3 druids of 11th level. The Gran Druid (15th level) gains 3 arch-druids (13th level) and 6 more of 7th - 11th level. It's not clear whether the gains are cumulative, i.e. when a 12th level druid attains 13th level, does he keep his original 3 druids he gained when reaching 12th level in addition to the 3 10th-level druids he gains for hitting 13th level? And so on and so forth up the chain? Druids gain an average of 3 followers.

Thieves attract 4d6 followers at 10th level - all thieves, thief/fighters, thief/fighter/mages, etc. The followers range from 1st to 8th level (average of 3rd level, considering the chart stats). The thief gains an average of 14 followers.

Bards gain 10d6 0th level fighters at 9th level. They get an average of 35 followers.

So followers will almost always (except for druids and possibly though probably not fighters and thieves) be far too low a level to "step in" for a PC who dies. The followers will simply be beginner-level at best.

Henchmen are different than followers.Followers serve their master out of respect and due to the master's reputation. Henchmen are higher level followers who were either hired to serve the PCs or who gained xp and rose in levels from follower status. Henchmen are more like NPC/PCs for lack of a better description. I've never liked the confusion between followers and henchmen - and it is confusing. The number of henchmen a single PC can have in an entire lifetime is dictated by his Charisma score and averages from 9 to 15 henchmen (based on CHA 9 to CHA 18).

Hirelings can be any sort and any level, from sages to blacksmiths to clerics. Usually they're just 0th level NPCs like blacksmiths, etc. No hireling will ever "step in" for a lost PC. They are not adventurers.

Hirelings do not go on adventures with PCs. Followers (according to the 2E PHB) do not go on adventures with PCs (which I find odd because to me followers would be the closest relationship to the PCs). Henchmen go on adventures with PCs and gain xp and treasure.

I gotta run an errand, so I'll analyze the 1E situation when I return. But getting back to Garhkal's last post, it's true, henchmen can be of any class and a wise PC would likely pick a class that supplements instead of duplicates his skill set. A fighter can batter down a door himself. He doesn't need an assistant fighter who can do the same. Better to have a thief who can silently unlock the door when battering it down is not an option. Or a healer who can heal damage as opposed to merely dishing it out as the fighter does.

OK, here is what 1E has to say on the matter (hmmm...this really should be its own thread)

Fighters gain "a body of men-at-arms". No details given that I've found as yet. It appears that "men-at-arms" in 1E is the equivalent of "followers" in 2E, based on the description of both fighters and paladins.

Rangers gain followers at 10th level. The ranger gets 2d12 followers in 1E as opposed to 2d6 in 2E. I noticed that they are called both followers and henchmen, interchangeably: "...each ranger attracts a body of 2-24 followers. Note that these henchmen, once lost, can never be replaced...".

Paladins don't attract followers at all, as in 2E. His henchmen can only be LG alignment.

Wizards and illusionists apparently do not attract followers. The 1E PHB is as silent on the matter as the 2E PHB.

Clerics gain tons of followers as they do in 2E. At 8th level, they gain 20-200 followers, but with no mention of level. Unlike 2E, the 1E PHB mentions that: "in addition [to the 20-200 followers] there will be followers who are men-at-arms (q.v.) and your referee will relay the types and numbers at the appropriate time." I cannot find any reference to "men-at-arms", nor any other 1E source showing what these may be. Of course, given the beloved mess of 1E, it may just have escaped my notice at the moment.

Druids gain 3 followers (druids only) at 12th level, and more as they reach higher levels. Same as 2E except the Grand Druid did not exist at the time.

Thieves attract 4d6 followers - all thieves, though nothing is written pertaining to levels.

Assassins do not gain followers until they hit 14th level. As Guildmaster, they attain 7d4 (7-28) 1st level assassins.

Monks are treated strangely. At 6th level they attain 2 "henchmen". These can be fighters (but not rangers or paladins), thieves, or assassins. I suspect Gygax had one of his infamous bouts with insanity while writing this up (the other major one being demihuman level limits ), because it makes no sense. Why not monk followers? I can even see fighters, but thieves and assassins? Hardly lawful types. Monks gain an additional henchman each level above 6th, up to the limit defined by their Charisma scores. Now here is where it gets crazy...with monks, henchmen and followers are apparently different types of NPCs (as opposed to being the same as noted in the ranger entry. With monks, they gain (at 8th level) 2-5 1st-level monks (as long as they have a monastery). The monk gains an additional 1-2 monks each time he gains a level. However, follower monks leave their monk master when the followers attain 7th level.

Bards are allowed only druids, fighters or thieves who are human, elven, or half-elven only. Bards have a total of 1 follower at 5th level, 2 at 8th level, 3 at 11th, 4 at 14th, 5 at 17th, 6 at 20th, and "any number" at 23rd level, subject to his Charisma limit.

I'm gonna start a new thread for this because it's really a bit off the original topic. Afterwards, Cole, Stik...if you like, just delete these two posts from this thread.