Predators (Yautja).. Evil or not?

[Stik]

I was talking about our fictional predators. If they have no idea that killing humans is bad, then they can't be considered evil for doing so.

As to whether they are any less evil for not killing the sick or pregnant humans, I think that is less about altruism and more about wanting the best possible prey, and conservation (so as to ensure the prey species survives), respectively.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Stik, I can sorta see that similar to how Galactus in Marvel Comics is considered beyond good and evil - he just tests to see those who are worthy of survival.

That brings up an interesting question though. From whose perspective is alignment determined? The evil priest who sacrifices virgins to Orcus may not think he's "evil", he may think he's doing a good thing or the right thing because (in his eyes) Orcus will make the world a better place (for the priest and his ilk). The paladin will consider that priest very evil. So which perspective determines alignment? I never thought about that before. Hmm.

[garhkal]

Well, since in ADND terms we do have absolutes to help that out (the various planes and gods ON those planes linked to said alignments) it should be easy to see what is/is not evil...
Though we then have other issues since some gods even of the same alignment have their Views differing on the same thing. Such as god A saying that killing all humanoids, even babies and female folk is good to go, "Nits make lice and such" mentality. While god B says only those who fight should be slaughtered..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Stik wrote:

What criteria are we to use to measure evil? Is evil absolute, independent of intent, or is it a choice every sentient creature makes?

Not sure what the correct answer to that would be. We have examples of cultures such as the Inuit, the Masai and even in ancient Japan, where the elderly are left in an abandoned place to die. Almost always this happened during times of famine. The idea was that the children and productive, working members of society were more vital to the survival of the tribe or culture, so when food was scarce and famine ruled it was better to let those who were very old die so that the others might live. Now most modern cultures would consider that barbaric or evil. But to them it was an act of goodness or at least necessity. It would not be considered evil.

Me personally, if my extended family and "tribe" wanted to leave my grandmother in the wilderness to die, well...I'd consider that a death warrant signed in blood and executable immediately. There would be plenty of food for grandma after that!

I guess that going by AD&D rules we have absolute alignments, in that they are spelled out and defined. A paladin, for example, would not tolerate leaving an elderly woman alone in the forest to die, famine or no famine.

Let's take, for example, a little boy frying ants using a magnifying glass.
If nobody has taught the boy that it is wrong, is it an evil act? My answer to that question is 'no'. He doesn't know any better.
Now suppose that boy's father sees him frying ants and explains that they are living creatures and that killing them for no reason is wrong - a bad thing to do. If the boy starts doing it again, he is choosing to do wrong, and therefore it is an evil act.

Good point. That brings us back to the question of who (or what) is deciding good and evil and how and why someone is accountable. To tinker with the analogy (only to make my point easier to make), let's say it's a boy who is setting fire to bee hives. He doesn't know any better. Maybe he got stung once and considers bees to be "bad". But by burning the bee hives he is harming nature, because the bees are no longer there to pollinate the forests. Pumpkins, almonds, grapefruit - all kinds of crops could fail if the bees die off (or in this case are killed off). No more honey. And of course, the death of the bees is itself the act of killing innocent insects.

Do we judge the boy evil because from an objective viewpoint he is causing harm not only to the bees, but is endangering the entire ecosystem? A druid would consider it a heinous act. Does the boy's ignorance of the implications of his act mean he is not committing an evil act? I guess the question boils down to "is evil in the eyes of the beholder or the mind of the doer?".

Are the yautja choosing to do something that they know is wrong/bad/evil? Or are they merely participating in their culture?

That's along the lines of the cultural starving of old people I mentioned earlier. Their culture may judge it to be good, but we may see it as evil. Who is right? Both sides can't be.

And just to muddy the waters a little bit, let's recall that the yautja only hunt creatures capable of killing them. They are pitting themselves against the strongest, most dangerous predators in a given environment, and risking their own lives in the process.

I'm not sure that matters. Let's say for example that I want to pit myself against the toughest, baddest predator out there. I decide to go hunt down and kill a Navy SEAL. Now surely the Navy SEAL is far more highly trained and tougher than me. To say I'd be risking my life to go after him would be an understatement. If I somehow manage to kill the Navy SEAL, that's still an evil act because he's an innocent person. There's no justifiable reason to kill him. He dies and the act of his death brings misery and suffering to his family and friends.

Now you might say that our culture does not condone such an act of predation. So let's say he gets killed by the yautja. Does that change the fact that he is innocent and does not deserve to die? Does that change the suffering brought about by his death? No. So if our culture considers it wrong but their culture considers it ok, one of us has to be wrong because the outcome is the same objectively - suffering inflicted on another.

[GenghisDon]

Ok, from watching both predator films, Predators, and both AvP films, we see that the Predator society seems rather bound to honor and glory, but do so by seeing all else (even sentient races such as humans) as nothing more than 'prey'.. So would you say that if you were to make a Predator race for ADND they would be LN or LE in alignment?

LE sounds like the standard fit. They are SPORT hunting sentient beings.

[Stik]

Ok, from watching both predator films, Predators, and both AvP films, we see that the Predator society seems rather bound to honor and glory, but do so by seeing all else (even sentient races such as humans) as nothing more than 'prey'.. So would you say that if you were to make a Predator race for ADND they would be LN or LE in alignment?

LE sounds like the standard fit. They are SPORT hunting sentient beings.

GD - Which part makes it evil, the sport part or the sentient part?
Because, again, both of these are a matter of culture for our fictional yautja.

Would hunting non-sentient beings for sport be evil?

Would hunting sentient beings for food be evil?

[GenghisDon]

possibly
probably (and note: THEY DO NOT EAT the "prey")

it is both combined that make it a certainty, however. sentients plus sport=evil

I ought note, though, that from what we see across the movies might allow for some NE, CE or even LN ones...most being LE.

furthermore, we only ever see a TINY sample size. There are probably 5 BILLION more, or even 500 billion more, on some planet, or across many planets. These few aliens we see could be no more representative of the species than a handful of big game trophy hunter humans, or any other relatively small human interest group. If humans were as technologically advanced as they, there would be humans doing the same damned things they do in those movies, and they wouldn't necessarily represent our species to any significant degree at all. So they could have a range of all 9 alignments, etc. Lots of IF's there, and we have no EVIDENCE to back that possibility up.

[garhkal]

GD - Which part makes it evil, the sport part or the sentient part?
Because, again, both of these are a matter of culture for our fictional yautja.

Would hunting non-sentient beings for sport be evil?

Would hunting sentient beings for food be evil?

Well, look at RL for that first one. MANY people feel hunting animals just for sport is evil.
As for "hunting sentients for food', that is one of the main thrusts of the conflict we have with the Wraith in Stargate atlantis.