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Regarding the thread:
After the question in that thread of whether the logic of 'materials not being a barrier' extended to include several hundred feet of solid stone, some of the responders did indicate that it was a valid concern and that the use of some range limitation based on materials was a reasonable measure. I did not vote in the poll, but would have indicated 'partially' as well.


My position:
The interpretation of the use of the word 'target' is not without some consideration, but by your own proposed comparison for magical parallels that do not 'target' things and only scan both Detect Magic and Detect Undead do express the limitation.

The point about Contact not being blocked does adhere to the exceptions from the "Line of Sight" description for both the first sentence [Unless the description states otherwise (the Contact power explicitly states otherwise)] and the last sentence ["...powers which list modifiers for targets which are outside of the psionicists field of vision"]. So this is clearly an intended exception.

Unmitigated detection out to a sphere of 300 ft radius through all materials (including solid rock, metal, etc) not only seems quite a stretch to me (especially given the rank of the ability and the psp expenditure), but would necessitate calculating every living thing on all levels of the dungeon above and below within that range. And, I would expect, create quite a mess of information coming in to the character.

I am not looking to completely hobble or hinder a character's ability, but to me it seems to be an oversight where similar considerations exist with similar abilities. As I mentioned before, the pure 'line of sight' explanation also does not seem to meet the intended use of the ability. This is leading to my interpretation that it can penetrate solid objects, just not without some degree of interference.



So I am going to propose the following in good-faith in hopes of an agreement:
Materials do interfere with the range of the power Life Detection in a similar manner to scanning detection magics (such as Detect Magic, Detect undead, etc) at a degree of 1 plus an order of magnitude. Thus an accumulated 11 Yards of wood, 11 Feet of stone or 11 inches of metal would be the limit.

Therefore successful use of the ability would detect creatures in an empty space beyond: several wooden walls/ doors/ trees, an 11 ft thick section of wall (a little meta I admit but to accommodate the intent since standard dungeon spacing is 10 feet), or nearly 1 foot of metal. It would sense anything in an empty space beyond a lesser thickness of said materials. So, for example, If Stephen scanned through a 10 ft thick section of wall, he would detect everything in the empty room beyond until he met the opposite wall if it were 1 ft thick or more

Is being able to detect all thinking life within 300 feet going to break this module wide open, such that it needs to be nerfed?

And this is probably going to come across as passive-aggressive, but are there any other of Stephen's powers you'd like to nerf before we continue?

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 6:36 pm Is being able to detect all thinking life within 300 feet going to break this module wide open, such that it needs to be nerfed?

And this is probably going to come across as passive-aggressive, but are there any other of Stephen's powers you'd like to nerf before we continue?

I gave you my rationale, and you know I have put a lot of thought into this decision. While you may see it as a 'nerf', it is not intended as such since the only strict guidance I could find that I believe applies was more restrictive (line of sight). In the same way the nearest parallell (material interference for other scanning detection style powers) was more restrictive than the adjudication.

And I agree, your comment did come off as passive aggressive.

TristenC wrote: ↑Wed Sep 17, 2025 6:18 amI gave you my rationale, and you know I have put a lot of thought into this decision. While you may see it as a 'nerf', it is not intended as such since the only strict guidance I could find that I believe applies was more restrictive (line of sight).

This is only true if you think that Life Detection targets the creatures it detects. But it does nothing to them. It does not apply any condition or penalty (or bonus!) to them. Life Detection literally does nothing to anyone other than the initiating psionicist. To the psionicist, it alters their perceptions to be able to detect thinking beings with a defined area of effect.

Can you tell me what effect it puts on those it detects?

I disagree with your interpretation that the word 'target' only applys to creatures affected by a power, and again refer to your own recommendations about looking at detect magic and detect undead. Those same conditions (the lack of bonus, condition or penalty) are true, and for those abilities the material thickness is clearly listed as a consideration.

We have both stated our stance on this several times and it feels like we are going in circles.

Here’s another thing to consider:
Contact goes through walls with a -1 penalty to the power score (Wisdom + nothin’) for a final score of Wis -1

Life Detection is rather similar to Contact, in that it doesn’t do anything to the target. Assuming it also goes through walls, one could expect a similar -1 penalty to the power score.

It’s power score is Intelligence-2. Intelligence is already likely to be lower than Wisdom for your average psionicist (this is true for Stephen), since it’s not a Prime Requisite. And it’s got a -2 modifier which is double the penalty for Contact going through walls.

Does it seem possible the designers already took into account the difficulty of scanning through solid materials?

This is really starting to seem like grasping at straws.

-There is no ambiguity in whether or not contact works through walls, so I don't feel like this is a valid comparison
-Contact is a pre req for many other powers so unless it were fairly easy to use those other powers would me much harder to pull off
-Contact only initiates with one person at a time (mass contact being a very different thing)

I feel the main strongest points have been made and barring additional official resource the directly addresses the question, I think we have to let it settle here or get pulled in indefinitely. I'm not interested in debating this ad-nauseum. Let's move on.

One more question: Are you sure you’re okay with a telepath in the party?

I ask this because, with the exception of Contact, every time Stephen’s used a telepathic power, I’ve had to fight for functionality that no other DM I’ve played with or for has even batted an eye at.

Truthear, I get it – you were trying to prevent the knock-down drag-out fight I’d warned was in the offing two weeks earlier. Evidently you and Bish didn’t take me seriously when I said that Ke’Sha was not going to be able to hide his murders. The upshot is that now I have a lie detector that can be fooled by “I don’t know”.

Mindlink we’ve been over. I feel “Language is not a barrier.” means you can communicate thoughts that can’t be described with words; you seem to feel it means words from unknown languages get translated into familiar ones. We ended up somewhere in between the two positions.

Life Detection: Do you really read that power description and think: Yeah, the writers intended this to only reach to the next solid object. Or do you just feel it’s too disruptive to the adventure if allowed to penetrate solid objects? Doesn't really matter, since you've already decided, but I am curious.

So: Are you really okay with a telepath? Or should I build a different character?

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am One more question: Are you sure you’re okay with a telepath in the party?

This also comes off as passive aggressive, and given several previous comments (particularly the most recent one about nerfing other powers) I'm really beginning to think it is intentional. This has the dual effect of implying to me you are not negotiating in good faith when an issue arises and eroding good will. And I am very nearly done putting up with it.

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am I ask this because, with the exception of Contact, every time Stephen’s used a telepathic power, I’ve had to fight for functionality that no other DM I’ve played with or for has even batted an eye at.

I do not know who your other DMs are, how they ran things, nor do I need to. It is expected that different people have different approaches to the game. Had either of us forseen how much of an issue this would be I would like to think we would have been able to discuss things to our mutual satisfaction before beginning.

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am Truthear, I get it – you were trying to prevent the knock-down drag-out fight I’d warned was in the offing two weeks earlier. Evidently you and Bish didn’t take me seriously when I said that Ke’Sha was not going to be able to hide his murders. The upshot is that now I have a lie detector that can be fooled by “I don’t know”.

we have already addressed the truthear to death, Including you messaging me privately and making accusations after I told you I was done with that discussion. I encourage you to review my previous comments and actually take them at face value instead of trying to imply your own meaning.

As for the conflict you took steps to attempt to bring to a head, I take partial responsibility for allowing the game to be delayed by Ke'Sha's side activities. However, I don't recall players making strong objections Prior to the deeds taking place. Certainly there was discussion after, and ofc it is possible I missed some of the cues Before his dsrk work was done. In fact this all led to the ret-con (which I typically very much dislike) but it seemed the only way the game could move forward. The other players were willing to let it go, but the game very nearly ended because you wanted to force the issue.

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am Mindlink we’ve been over. I feel “Language is not a barrier.” means you can communicate thoughts that can’t be described with words; you seem to feel it means words from unknown languages get translated into familiar ones. We ended up somewhere in between the two positions.

I believe I merely stated it was unclear, but it seems to have little effect on the game that I can see. The power has been used to great effect by the party so far.

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am Life Detection: Do you really read that power description and think: Yeah, the writers intended this to only reach to the next solid object. Or do you just feel it’s too disruptive to the adventure if allowed to penetrate solid objects? Doesn't really matter, since you've already decided, but I am curious.

This somewhat misrepresents my position, as from the beginning I stated that what I felt was most appropriate was a certain thickness of materials. This doesn't fit your description of stopped by the 'next solid object', and in fact does allow it to penetrate solid objects, just not limitlessly.

I read that power and thought, "Ok, area detection. Very similar to many other area detection things in the game." When it came up in-game the first time Axid used it (just before the first troll fight, prior to you joining us) I reviewed the text of the power, the line of sight comment, and made the adjudication that it would behave as the above re materials thicknesses.

Later on, after you joined, and the question came up again so I:
-re-reviewed all of the previous considerations
-looked through the Will and the Way which I had not done before
-Entertained each of your arguments regarding the matter and responded with my logic
-Agreed to look over comments from other DMs on the topic (several of which supported my position regarding materials when that element was introduced)
-Ended up extending my previous ruling by Another Order of Magnitude to show it as a sign of good-faith and to help simplify any future borderline cases (so a 10 ft wall wouldn't be an issue)

To be blunt, I feel like I have bent over backwards at this point trying to be fair in my assessment only to find you borderline belligerent about it.

Lord Torath wrote: ↑Thu Sep 18, 2025 6:49 am So: Are you really okay with a telepath? Or should I build a different character?

I have no problems with any class or variation of skills (within that class) that I have listed as available for the game. I do not promise that we will always agree on how certain things work, but so long as my good will holds out I will entertain polite and fruitful discussion about them.

Given all of the above, I leave it to you whether you wish to continue with Stephen or build a new character if you feel that any currently unforseen future issues aren't worth managing.