Labyrinth OOC

[TristenC]

===========================
Stephen knows Allikhain lied about doubting Ke'Sha's story. He doesn't know if Ke'Sha's statement was a lie, but he knows she's lying about not knowing.

I don't agree with the logic that 'doubting something is true/untrue' is a deliberate lie compared to believing or knowing it. She doubts it because she knows better, but that is no lie.

Even if it were, the statement being identified as false would not necessarily indicate whether she was lying about her 'doubt' or about the 'truth'. It might indicate she does doubt he found them, rather than omitting that she knows rather than doubts. In fact, the truthear power says nothing about 'sins of omission' for lack of a better term.

[Lord Torath]

By stating she doubts something, she's saying she's unsure if it's true or not. She does know and telling Stephen she doesn't is the lie.

because she knows better

[TristenC]

A philisophical distinction, and Allikhain is a philosopher. But either way, the ability describes it as detecting 'intentional lies'. Her intention was to say the minimum that she thought would help the discussion while keeping it technically true. So the intent was not to lie. The power description says it is dependent on the speaker's intent. She is intending to speak minimal truth.

The power in this case does not indicate she lied, so stephen can make of that what he wishes.

[Lord Torath]

"Doubt" is defined as uncertainty. She expressed uncertainty when she was, in fact, certain. You even said "she knows better." Saying she was uncertain when she was not uncertain is lying. She knows for certain. She has no doubt.

She may have intended to not say anything that could be pegged as outright false, but she stumbled.

She is certain of the truthfulness of his remark. Thus, lie.

[Lord Torath]

Do we need to define lying here? Truthear describes two types of lies: intentional and unintentional.

When a psionicist uses truthear, he can tell whether other people intentionally lie. He does not hear their words translated into truth; he merely knows whether or not the speakers believe they are lying.
Power Score-The psionicist recognizes falsehood even when the speaker does not.
20-The psionicist can't use this power effectively against this subject for 1d6 days.

That seems to say that an intentional lie is when you say something you know is not true. If I tell you my cat is on my bed when she’s actually in my lap, that’s an intentional lie. If I tell you my cat is on the bed, and she was when I last saw her 20 seconds ago, but 10 seconds ago she moved to the chair, that’s an unintentional lie.

If she was on the bed 20 seconds ago, but ten seconds ago I heard Lady Torath enter the bathroom and I know that my cat almost always follows her in there, and I tell you “My cat’s probably on the bed” that’s a lie, because I know she’s more likely to be in the bathroom than on my bed. If I tell you “My cat might be on the bed” that’s not a lie, because I don’t know for certain that she followed my wife, and as far as I know, she could still be on the bed. But if I heard my cat in the bathroom, it would be a lie, because then I know she’s not on the bed.

If you're really going to insist Allikhain’s expression of doubt is not a lie, I suppose I can change Stephen’s accusation of her lying to something like: "While Ke’Sha’s... explanation… is entirely possible, it is not at all plausible. What's your part in this?"

But we’re going to need a firm definition of what is and is not a lie, and I hope it won’t be one that neuters truthear. Let me know where you want to go from here.

[BishGada]

Ke'Sha coughs a bit and says, "Allakhain was not on my bed... and she certainly didn't follow my wife."

[Lord Torath]

(OOC:
'I found them around' (which is different from 'I found them' as far as my limited English goes) was meant to be funny outside the game, but oh well.. water under the bridge.
By the way: 'pick up on the little guy', and 'blame the necromancer' are also supposed to be humorous.
About mistrust, you have a point there. Still there can be mistrust between any group when they first meet. Admittedly demons are less trustworthy but Ke'Sha doesn't have to explain himself. You don't see him questioning the others, although they might kill him at the night believing they brought good to the world. As far as he cares, if he was too cautious about the others he could stay behind, but since he choose to continue, anyone else who feels too cautious can stay behind as well.

Anyway, I did say I love roleplaying but I feel this is going south...
To tell the truth, I thought we had several opportunities to keep the situation a bit vague, giving the benefit of the doubt and move on, but now, I don't see as a player the light in the end of the tunnel.
I do want to continue playing with you guys, but: 1. If you feel otherwise, of course I won't force myself. 2. If you think I will enjoy playing without more than half my spells and without my minions, well, you are wrong.

So if you aim at an in game way out of it, satisfying both Stephen and Ke'Sha, that I continue to miss it because of my limited creativity or intelligence, please give me a hint.
)

I did say a couple pages back that we were well past plausible deniability. None of our PCs are stupid, and several are quite intelligent. And I did build Steve with the idea of pulling secrets out of our opponent's heads. That was well before Ke'Sha starting murdering people. Having Stephen not investigate the sudden appearance of drow and a demon, especially considering the disappearance of the three natives was just not going to happen. If word had not arrived about the disappearances, we'd probably just be arguing about a demon and asking about the drow. If Ke'Sha had had a better explanation of where they came from, Stephen wouldn't have initiated truthear, and then we'd just be worried about drow presence and arguing about letting a demon into the party instead. Although Stephen would certainly ask about where their cloaks went, since Jag could probably wear one.

That's why I asked Tristan about his planned endgame and what people's character's would be willing to work with. In our party of 4 PCs, you've got three who will not work with demons, and are not okay with murdering innocent civilians and turning them into undead, but are unhappy but okay with raising our opponents as undead to use against them. Summoned undead - like the spectre - probably fall under the 'unhappy, but okay" category. Ghasts are still a hard "No." Too stinky.

What would Ke'Sha be unhappy but okay with? Because as Calvin says, "A good compromise leaves everyone mad."

As for an explanation, you can use Belkar the halfling's reasoning from (panel 3). Ke'Sha's unhappy with the restrictions put upon him by the group (whatever we agree on), but is grudgingly willing to put up with them because he's outnumbered.

After we agree what out-of-character what limitations Ke'Sha is willing to operate under, we can guide our in-game discussions to arrive at the same point.

[Lord Torath]

Here's another good reason for Ke'Sha to agree not to murder any more locals. There are more of them than us, and if we rile them up, they could raze our camp while we're in the Labyrinth. Then we have no safe place to rest between forays. Imagine returning from a hard day in the Labyrinth, battered, bruised, low on hps, spells, and PSPs, only to find the camp in flames, most of the people dead, Lena just as battered and bruised as we are, and now we're surrounded by hostiles both inside and outside the Labyrinth.

[TristenC]

Do we need to define lying here?

That comes off as a rather condescending way to begin a post, whether you intended it to or not.

That seems to say that an intentional lie is when you say something you know is not true. If I tell you my cat is on my bed when she’s actually in my lap, that’s an intentional lie. If I tell you my cat is on the bed, and she was when I last saw her 20 seconds ago, but 10 seconds ago she moved to the chair, that’s an unintentional lie.

If she was on the bed 20 seconds ago, but ten seconds ago I heard Lady Torath enter the bathroom and I know that my cat almost always follows her in there, and I tell you “My cat’s probably on the bed” that’s a lie, because I know she’s more likely to be in the bathroom than on my bed. If I tell you “My cat might be on the bed” that’s not a lie, because I don’t know for certain that she followed my wife, and as far as I know, she could still be on the bed. But if I heard my cat in the bathroom, it would be a lie, because then I know she’s not on the bed.

I don't disagree with any of that. And part of that was close to my point. She did not make a comment using the word doubt that was conflicting with the situation, she made one that was supporting the situation as we understand it. Aside from that there is the philisophical aspect I mentioned, about the nature of doubt and whether 'knowing' something 100% is ever truly possible. As a philosopher, Allikhain would likely fall into that. As her intent was to be truthful and the comment was supporting the truth, it stands in this instance; though it was less-precise than it could have been.

If you're really going to insist Allikhain’s expression of doubt is not a lie, I suppose I can change Stephen’s accusation of her lying to something like: "While Ke’Sha’s... explanation… is entirely possible, it is not at all plausible. What's your part in this?"

But we’re going to need a firm definition of what is and is not a lie, and I hope it won’t be one that neuters truthear. Let me know where you want to go from here.

The ruling for her statement is that it was not a lie, and in no way contradicted the truth as she understood it. Truthhear relies on intent, as in the description. If someone says something they know or believe to be untrue, truthear will detect it. In the event of a power score roll it will detect an untruth. If there is a half-truth or a finer point to be made on another statement, we can discuss it. Nobody is trying to neuter your character's abilities.

[Lord Torath]

Her statement was : "I doubt his remarks are untrue."

As stated before, 'doubt' expresses uncertainty. As you yourself said, she knew better. She was not uncertain. She said something she did not believe was true. How is that not a lie?

Truthear relies on knowledge, not intent. If you say something you believe to be false, that's a lie. Truthear explicitly says it tells the user whether or not someone believes what they say. Allikhain does not believe she doubts Ke'Sha's story. She knows. She has no doubt.

An intentional lie is one you believe is a lie. An unintentional lie is one you believe is true, but is actually false. It's not a lie you didn't intend to let slip past your lips.

[BishGada]

Ke'Sha doesn't specifically searches for the natives to kill. It's just the the spell requires humanoids. It was also resource management, building the minions on camp which frees spell slots for combats.
Regarding the demon, bargain isn't a must. According to the spell description grater Varragoind may try to free themselves of the summon once a day, and then return to the abyss or may ask for something in return.
Ke'Sha would agree to raise humanoid monsters instead of natives if there are any. And summon undead. He wouldn't risk the party on purpose. And he can say that they traveled the Ethereal plane to get to the recruits, which is true but again I don't think will satisfy Stephen.

Since Stephen insists again and again to get a clear statement that Ke'Sha doesn't have anything to do with the missing natives, even though there is nothing to connect Ke'Sha directly to that, more than Landro for example, this won't happen. That's why I don't see a way out.

I already said, if you expect that he let the ex-native and the demon lose and go in stripped of spells, and minions, it is way too much. And I don't really see the middle ground here... Ke'Sha has to compromise and you compromise on the smell?

[Lord Torath]

On the current trajectory, Stephen's next moves involve sending the demon back to the abyss (as threatened), then using ESP to determine just where Ke'Sha got the drow undead. He is concerned that Ke'Sha's actions are endangering the mission. Stephen is a powerful mindbender. As soon as word arrived about the villagers' disappearances, there was no way this wasn't coming out. Give up on the idea of Ke'Sha keeping this a secret.

So the next question becomes how we move forward.

3 of 4 PCs have said they won't work with a demon, and are not okay with murdering villagers and raising them as undead.
We are willing to compromise by allowing Ke'Sha to raise enemy undead and summon undead. That still allows plenty of minions.
What is Ke'Sha willing to compromise on?

[TristenC]

Her statement was : "I doubt his remarks are untrue."

As stated before, 'doubt' expresses uncertainty. As you yourself said, she knew better. She was not uncertain. She said something she did not believe was true. How is that not a lie?

Truthear relies on knowledge, not intent. If you say something you believe to be false, that's a lie. Truthear explicitly says it tells the user whether or not someone believes what they say. Allikhain does not believe she doubts Ke'Sha's story. She knows. She has no doubt.

An intentional lie is one you believe is a lie. An unintentional lie is one you believe is true, but is actually false. It's not a lie you didn't intend to let slip past your lips.

We obviously disagree about a fundamental part of this. We have each had our say, but it is going nowhere.

Let's move on.

[Lord Torath]

So define for me what an unintentional lie is so I know what to expect in the future, and how it relates to saying something you believe to to be false?

As far as intent goes, as far as I understand it, Allikhain's intent was to deceive Stephen and cover for Ke'Sha. Am I wrong there?

[Nocturno]

I don't remember saying anything about demons.

I only stated Jag would not continue with murdered villagers in their service.

Jack would not care either way, as he is always suspicious of everyone.

Since it seems to be relevant, Jag would not want a demon there, but he knows enough that if he understands the terms of the demon's service, he would cautiously work with the group.

Again Jack would apply the help, but be more cautious if possible.