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What's this campaign's view of the use of poisons relative to alignment? Is any use of poison considered evil? Or does it depend on how, why, and what kind of poison is used?

For example, would dipping one's arrows in non-lethal 'sleep' poison before shooting them at enemies/opponents be considered an evil act (assuming that shooting non-poisoned arrows at the same targets for the same reasons would not be considered an evil act)?

In the case that the above use would not be an evil act, Stephen would like to see if he can procure some non-lethal injected 'sleep' poison (this being the World of Greyhawk, Drow sleep poison probably exists, and Steve would just need a version that doesn't instantly lose its potency when exposed to sunlight).

Jag will politely decline using up spell slots to temporarily reducing the rings, unless a particular challenge comes up where they will be necessary.

Did I miss anything else? There has been a lot of strategy and other talk in this game, and it feels like I'm the guy who left the table to get a drink and washroom break. Then missed the whole strat, so he just busts down the front door.

I would say for lethal poisons evil chars are fine, neutral may be able to rationalize it, for good chars it will be very difficult to do.

For non-lethal poisons it is probably acceptable for anyone who doesn't have a personal code against it (like a kit restriction)

As for having a supply of 'sleep poison' here, there are paralytic and disabling injection poisons (type O and P) but they take minutes if not hours to take effect after application. Exotic poisons or gasses like Drow sleep poison or Svirfneblin sleep caltrops I think will be out of reach for this campaign (unless a pc is made with the ability to make it, then a limited supply can be had to start but manufacture takes to long to do within the campaign). Probably much easier to use magic or the like to incapacitate enemies.

Nocturno wrote:Did I miss anything else? There has been a lot of strategy and other talk in this game, and it feels like I'm the guy who left the table to get a drink and washroom break. Then missed the whole strat, so he just busts down the front door.

"Leeeeeerrrrooooyyyy Jennnnkinnnns!"

I think the plan is that Stephen and Jack will be on Trap Detection duty (Stephen can tell whenever he comes within 20 feet of one, allowing Jack to know when and roughly where to search). Stephen would greatly appreciate an Invisibilty spell, but it's probably really not that critical.

Our current plan (I think) is that we will try pushing a knife on a stick through the 'blood bubble' to see if it penetrates the 'floor of force'. Also try tossing a chicken/goat into the bubble. Stephen will Contact it and use Sight Link to see if it comes out somewhere safe, and then use Dimensional Door/Wormhole to get the rest of the party to that location, assuming we decide not to jump into the 'blood bubble' ourselves.

Something else we could try is tossing some undead and/or quasits in the blood bubble and see where they come out. The spectre Ke'Sha summoned could also prove useful, if it can bypass solid objects (as Tristan suggested by having it sink into the ground). Since it's intelligent, Stephen could Contact and Sightlink it as well.

TristenC wrote:As for having a supply of 'sleep poison' here, there are paralytic and disabling injection poisons (type O and P) but they take minutes if not hours to take effect after application. Exotic poisons or gasses like Drow sleep poison or Svirfneblin sleep caltrops I think will be out of reach for this campaign (unless a pc is made with the ability to make it, then a limited supply can be had to start but manufacture takes to long to do within the campaign). Probably much easier to use magic or the like to incapacitate enemies.

I've always found it odd how there are only two non-lethal poisons on the table, despite the comment in the DMG saying "Not all poisons need cause damage. Two other common effects of poison are to paralyze or debilitate the victim."

Here's a (non-exhaustive) list of critters (and people) using non-lethal poisons/venoms:
Crawler (Beholder Kin) - Onset: instant, Paralysis for 1d4 rounds
Giant Centipede - Onset: instant, Paralysis for 2d6 hours
Huge Centipede - Onset: instant, Paralysis for 1d6 hours
Psuedodragon - Onset: instant, Coma for 1d6 days
Dwarf, Derro - Onset: instand, Strength to 5 as per Ray of Enfeeblement (unstated duration)
Elemental Kin, Fire, Fire Snake - Onset: instant, paralysis for 2d4 turns
Elf, Silvanesti - poisoned arrows causing paralysis for 1d10 rounds (1d10 turns in DL07 Dragons of Light)
Drow - Onset: instant, unconscious for 2d4 hours
Drider - onset: instant, paralysis 1d2 turns
Fish, Dragonfish - onset: 'slow acting'/instant, -2 to hit for 1d12+4 hours
Fish, Stingray -onset: instant, paralysis for 5d4 turns
Giant, Jungle - onset: instant, paralysis for 2d6 turns
Gloomwing, tenebrous worm - onset: instant, paralysis for 1d4 rounds
Gnome, Deep - Stun/slow poison and sleep gas
Golem, Necrophidius - onset: instant, paralysis/unconsiousness for 1d4 turns
Grell - onset: instant, paralysis for 5d4 rounds
Haemonculus - onset: instant, unconscious for 5d6 rounds
Quasit - onset: instant, -1 Dex for 2d6 rounds
Insect, Assasin Bug - onset: instant, local paralysis for 1 hour
Lurker, Trapper, Forest - onset: instant, paralysis for 2d20 turns
Mongrelmen - 'paralyzing darts' (no further information)
Myconid - 'pacifier posion' effectively paralysis for 4-6 rounds
Naga, Dark - onset: 1 round, sleep for 2d4 rounds
Neogi - onset: instant, slowed for 1d8 rounds
Mustard jelly - onset: instant, slowed for 2 rounds
Ooze, Crystal - onset: instant, paralysis (no listed duration)
Plant, Dangerous, tri-flower Frond - onset: instant, unconscious for 1d4 hours
Roper - onset: 1d3 rounds, lose half Str for 2d4 turns
Snake, Poisonous - varies
Spider - "Most listed here are poisonous and bite prey first, because unconscious victims are easier to carry to a lair". And yet, only the watch (under 'Hairy spider') and gargantuan spiders have paralytic poison.
Sprite - poison arrows, sleep for 1d6 hours
Stirge, Jungle - "Purportedly, they have a paralyzing poison in the tips of their sharp snouts that is highly prized by local tribesmen." No further details. However, we are in a jungle area...
Thri-kreen - Instant, paralysis for 1 to 20 rounds, depending on size of victim
Urchin, Sea - "...spines may contain paralytic and even lethal poisons." No further information
Urchin, Land - onset: instant, paralysis for 1 hours

What are the chances of finding some paralytic Jungle Stirge venom? Or something along the lines of the poison used by the Silvanesti (High) Elves? Any chance of getting Giant or Huge centipede venom? Where do Jungle Giants get their venom? Given that we're also in a jungle, would the locals know and be able to supply some?

Perfect, thanks.

If one of the above creatures can be found and successfully harvested for their venom, that could potentially create a resource. There are no 'Jungle giants' or similar creatures in the vale due to the small size of the ecosystem. There may be giant centipedes and the like but the party will have to find them. Many of those with alchemy or background in toxins can tell you whatever you harvest and make it will always be weaker than the original (either slower, less effect, shorter furation, or some combo of those factors)

Fair enough. I'll pass for now.

I'm okay moving to the next day.

Ke'Sha has NWP in Botany Herbalism and Poisons. Surprise!

Steve will trade a Gem of Dimension Blade for a constant supply of paralysis poison to dip his knife/arrows into. As long as you don't have to kill any sapient beings to make it, anyway.

(On the other hand, Ke'Sha will probably come back to turn any paralyzed critters into some horrible kind of undead, won't he?)

Ke'Sha does have some ability, but venom is animal based poison (botany, herbalism) is plant based.

I'm sure he would try to harvest any dead critters, but he is almost at full capacity for controlled undead at the moment.

There are several (in-game) plants that have 'sleep' poison. The Plant, Dangerous, Tri-flower Frond I mentioned above (from the Monstrous Manual) knocks one out instantly for 1d4 hours. The Amber Lotus (from MC 17) has pollen that knocks people unconscious for 4d4 turns, and is used by alchemists to make sleep poisons (salves) for anointing edged weapons. There are probably others (I only checked two sources).

I'm not saying that these plants must be available in the jungle we're currently in; I'm just listing them to point out that not all venoms are animal-based, and that Herbalism should still be useful for making poisons of all kinds - contact, injected, ingested, and inhaled.

All that said, I'm not pursuing a poison supply for Stephen. He'll mostly stick to his mind bending.

Scheduling note: I will have little to no internet access from the 3rd through the 13th. I will try to check in, but I make no promises. I will most likely be away from my books, and any posting will be via my phone.

You shouldn't bother what Ke'Sha will do with the critters. What you don't know, won't disturb you.
Ke'Sha also has Poisons, so I can that does count for animal venoms, no?

The dimension blades might be useful for the undead warriors...

Sadly, I don't think many of your undead are intelligent enough to use a psionic weapon. The spectre probably is, but can't actually hold it.

There's also the fact that psionic items have the same alignment as their creator (Neutral Good in this case), and they are all intelligent (in this case, smarter than most of your undead critters - if you could get a zombie to use it, it might turn out that the zombie obeys the gem's orders rather than yours). So it will likely fight you any time you try to get it to function, and it may even be able to take control of your character (although it's pretty unlikely, since this gem has a very low Ego). But the resistence it puts up when trying to use it could cost you your action for that round. Depends on just how Tristan wants to rule it.

The jujus are also intelligent, but point taken.