OOC Chat II

[JadedDM]

This was the closest we've come to a TPK in this game since...I want to say the final battle with the Sinister Shroom.

The thing is, this battle shouldn't have been such a challenge. It was meant for 4-8 PCs of third to fifth level. We have 6 PCs of fifth to sixth level (and two henchmen of half that level).

I bring this up because the next chapter is of the same difficulty level and the chapter after that is even more difficult.

Therefore I thought it might be prudent to open a discussion on what went wrong, what could have gone better, and how such a close call can be prevented in the future.

But two caveats here:

First, no point in blaming the dice. Sure, if the party rolled better and/or the Daergar rolled poorer, things would have been easier. But that's outside of anyone's control, so pointing it out as a factor doesn't really solve anything. And luck was hardly the sole factor here.

Second, let's also avoid throwing blame around at each other. "If player X had done Y, this never would have happened" will just hurt feelings and start arguments.

[Jerrard]

We weren't organised enough, proof that Jerrard really isnt a leader...

[JadedDM]

Organization is important, I agree. The Daergar were organized, and they were quite devastating because of it, despite being lower level than the party. Especially when they all focused on a single target. That's why I've always harped on the idea of the party having a leader--someone who can direct them in battle, instead of everyone just doing their own thing.

[Breila]

Also, we walked into an obvious trap. I knew it was likely to be one, but since giant spiders are Babushka's species enemy, I thought she would not be able to think rationally when seeing one tearing an ally to pieces. Once the spiders were dead and she could cool her head when fetching Ulster and Thuskar, she was smart enough to approach from behind as they should have done all along.

[JadedDM]

Yes, it was pretty clear it was a trap. The four Daergar the party fought beforehand (the ones Jerrard entangled in his Web spell), almost outright said as much.

But I think this ties back in with the organization thing. People weren't sure how to act (jump in and save the elves, attack the spider, search for dwarves, etc.) and so things just kind of happened.

[Breila]

Maybe I'm simply rebellious in nature, but I dislike the idea of there being an appointed leader who expects obedience from the others.

[JadedDM]

Well, that's up to you guys, of course. I'm not going to mandate anyone be leader of anything.

I'm just trying to help you avoid a TPK, that's all.

[Jenara]

At the end of the day we screwed up. Not much else to say.

[JadedDM]

At the end of the day we screwed up. Not much else to say.

Isn't there? I mean, if all you want to say is "I screwed up" and call it a day, there's nothing I can do for you. If it were me, I would analyze how I screwed up, why it happened, and seek ways to avoid it happening again. Everybody makes mistakes. But when those mistakes are repeated over and over again...

Well, again, that's your call. At the very, very least, I would suggest looking at the Tactics section in The Complete Fighter's Handbook for some tips on good strategies (starting on page 89). Not all of them are applicable to the party, but some might come in handy. (If you guys don't have access to that book, I can type out the information here, but it's a lot, so it would take awhile.)

Maybe I'm simply rebellious in nature, but I dislike the idea of there being an appointed leader who expects obedience from the others.

I was doing more thinking on this quote last night. And I believe this boils down to trust. When a leader makes a call in a battle, the rest of the party obeys--not because he/she is the 'leader' and 'expects obedience' but because they trust him/her to make the right call. That you trust him/her to have your own interest, and the party's collective interest, at heart.

Obviously, if nobody trusts or has confidence in the leader, they won't listen. So are you saying there is nobody in the party currently you could trust in that capacity?

But now I'm kind of wondering--I know this isn't the first game you've ever participated in; so in the past, how did parties that you played in survive without any leadership? Blind luck? Coddling DM? Every game I've ever run (until I came to Planet) always had a party leader, either officially or unofficially. Parties without strong leadership tended to die sooner or later.

I'm actually very surprised that this party has been able to survive as long as it has without leadership.

[Breila]

Well, except from some playing as a guest in various sessions, I have only played in one very long campaign. When I had to leave it, it was the longest-running fixed group of AD&D characters in Germany (over 3 years). We were five players who met weekly, and there was no formal leadership. How we survived? Maybe because it was easier to communicate and when someone was about to blunder, he/she was warned by the others.

I don't think it's possible to just say: "so-and-so is the leader". If it doesn't develop organically, it's not following by trust, it's obedience. In my opinion at least.

[JadedDM]

Well, I agree that just declaring someone a leader won't solve anything. That's basically what did happen, actually. Jerrard and Babushka had a secret meeting where it was decided Jerrard would be leader. Nobody else in the party was asked for input or even informed about the decision afterward. Then things continued on like they always have, with no change whatsoever.

If it doesn't develop organically, it's not following by trust, it's obedience. In my opinion at least.

I would agree, but it would seem our problem is that it isn't developing at all, nevermind organically.

But it is starting to appear that I seem to be the only one concerned here. The vibe I'm getting from the posts so far in this discussion has ranged from apathy to resentment. I'm not sure why. Maybe you guys don't care either way, or maybe you're confident that you'll survive just fine without any coordination or strategy.

Whatever the case, I seem to be wasting my breath (well, not literally, since I'm typing, not speaking) in pursuing this further. We don't seem to be getting anywhere here. I'll drop the subject then, and we'll just...'see what happens.'

In any case, the remainder of this chapter will be dedicated to interaction (we have a new team member, after all; I'm sure everyone will want the chance to get to know him outside of combat). After that, we'll move on to the third chapter of this module.

[Jenara]

Sorry we both need to be move involved in this, but I'm on nights, Jerrard is covering the slack with the kids so really lacking in free time till weds (when my nights are over)..

And to cap it all off my net is totally down.

[Breila]

Don't worry, we'll address the issue in-character.

I've been thinking again about the old game group and leadership there, as it was, each of the characters had their area of expertise and the rest of the group followed the "expert" in the field, there was no overall leader.

There is no doubt that this group needs better co-ordination, but appointing someone as leader won't do that, IMO.

[NoTrammeling]

Just wanted to note that I'm going to be spotty for a few weeks. Traveling and such. Still should be able to get in fairly often!

[JadedDM]

Understood. Now that the fighting is over for now, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.