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BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

A classic 2e Puzzle dungeon for High Level characters
Beware, this one is substantially longer and (IMHO) even harder than the legendary Tomb of Horrors!
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

======================================================================
(OOC: He writes it in common.

Yeah, I was sure I selected etherealness myself, then I saw that due to the long time to change spells I left it as it was before. :/
Anyhow, Limited wish definitely can solve the problem, for example using it to get the etherealness effect or teleport everyone to isolated location not too far from the camp, or just wishing for the entire village to believe it was truly the gods who did it and their people are in better state now.

If not... Binky, Gur and Dromacus can fly. Allakhain can teleport. Ke'Sha can use "assume undead form", turn to a spectre and carry one victim flying. If Dromacus have the spell fly it can cast it on one of the trolls that will carry the two other victims, and Allakhain and the other two trolls, and even Dromacus for that matter, doesn't even have to leave the ethereal world.

But Limited wish that will make the village pleased with the missing people and ignore the trail would be best. :)
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

=========================================================================
(OOC: Another option is that Ke'Sha uses his assume undead form to turn into a Juvenile Amber dracolich, carry the trolls and the humans and fly away. Is has 24' body length and 21' tail length, so I assume he can manage it but if he can't, he can alternatively assume undead form of a venerable crystal dragon zombie and use it's innate magic to cast fly on itself and carry them on 72' body and 70' tail.
According to here: https://www.completecompendium.com/appendix/dracolic/ neutral dragons can also be dracoliches and venerable crystal dragon skeletons or zombies are 8HD. lesser undead dragons have their spells as innate magic and thus they use it even on that form.
Seeing the tracks of a dragon can convince the village they don't need to follow us...
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

[ooc] Allikhain does not have 'Limited Wish' prepared. If she steps out of the Ethereal, everyone does, there is no splitting the group in that regard.

For the 'Undead Form' spell... has Ke'Sha ever met a juvenile Amber dracolich and obtained its flesh for the casting of the spell? This very specific loophole seems a bit of a stretch. And while the spell doesn't specifically seem to limit the type, all the examples given are humanoid, not Actual Dragons.

Even without those exceptions, he does not have the spell prepared today, so it is a moot point...
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Before discussing the assume undead form, what about Dromacus having polymorph self? It can be reasonable. We can get ~100 yards from the village, he turns into a dragon and carries us from there. He can buy this off as 1. leaving massive impression on the village. 2. being the key person in our operation.

IF not we can just go, try to cover our tracks as best as we can and if they follow us tomorrow Ke'Sha will just shrug and say "I found them this way." :)

Now about assume undead form:
Of course he has it memorized.

This is the post after you mentioned it will take forever with the initial spell list I planed to change:

1st: leave as it was before
2nd: take speak with animals instead of spiritual hammer => 20
3rd: Animate dead , Negative plane protection, instead of Life Drain and Aid => 60
4th: assume undead form x 2, Instead of 2xgenius => 80
5th: animate dead monsters x2, slay living, instead of dispel good, Air walk, Imbue undead with spell ability => 150
5th-7th: I need the changes for the project...

Now without being too petty :D
I'm quoting some parts of the descriptions and give them interpretation that I think is fair:
This spell enables the spellcaster to assume the form of an undead creature, with all of the attendant abilities...
...any type of undead they are familiar with of 8 HD or less that they could possibly turn if of six levels lower in experience than their current level...
At level 11 you can turn all. Undead not in the common table are 'Special'
They are familiar with doesn't necessarily means they have to meet it. Ke'Sha had travelled and learned a lot. He is focused on undead. Everyone likes dragons. There is very good chance he met few small ones and read a lot about the process of creating undead. He is after all high priest of the Lord of the Undead. He has divination spells and the devotion to learn about them. I'm familiar with these dragons and I'm not even religious not to mention a priest. ;)
The only difference in abilities... no victims can arise as undead
And very important:
The material component for this spell is a small piece of bone or flesh from the body of being who is now undead.
It doesn't say it have to be a part from the creature you want to turn to, just a piece of something who is now undead. Like piece of the trolls, or the skeletons or Ho & Rror.

So I think it can be done fairly according with the spell description without stretching it too thin or giving it improbable interpretation.
Having said that, it is a strong spell, I admit. But others in the group have great powers too.
Having said that a second time... I'll understand if you want to limit this ability, even that I don't think it interferes with the game, consider for example the polymorph self mentioned before. You can turn to a dragon and have all your spells available. Here you get special powers of the creature you turn into, but you turn only into 8HD beings and can't use your own spells during this time... So it is not THAT much more powerful (if at all). It is different, variable, interesting... It is nice to drain levels. But you also get the vulnerabilities of the undead... so all in all it is strong and yet balanced. Also consider polymorph other that can grant the creature the actual special abilities and any HD, and this can be even more powerful way to create OP allies.

But if you still think it is OP, I'd rather not to restrict it only to the common simple undead, because then, under 9HD they are pretty simple.
What about having 10 or so interesting creatures that I can choose? 1 or 2 dragons. 8 other specials? from the hundreds of special undead exists...
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

[ooc] <Facepalm> Dang, not sure how I missed updating the spell list properly. Fixed that now.

I feel like the material component interpretation is a bit literal but the text itself is vague enough for sure so what the heck, that's fine.

To be honest, it took me a while to even find Amber dragons in my catalogue of monsters. It's a pretty obscure reference, and they are listed as Very Rare. then to have that specific sub-species (with a 8HD base value for the purposes of the spell requirements) as a Dracolich just really just seems like a bit of a stretch to me. Because let's be honest, the vast majority of dragons in that age/size group are higher than 8 HD.

Regarding the comparison (Poly Self vs Assume Undead Form) I think it's important to acknowledge that PS is a Wiz spell and not a Priest spell, it can be difficult to make good comparisons between them w/ respect to power level. Even so, PS doesn't require familiarity with the form to be taken, but AUF does.

But given that he is very familiar with the creation of undead and probably Dracoliches, let's call it a 50% chance that he is familiar enough with Amber Dragons to assume the form of a Juvenile Amber Dracolich. But for future reference, things with variable HD options (like dragons!) are going to be difficult to justify for this.

So roll 1d100: 1-50 he can manage it, above 50 it doesn't work properly. [ooc]
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

[1d100]=17

Hip! Hip! Horay!

So even for gameplay I think it can be very interesting way to get out of the village and swiftly get to a location where they can create the zombies and wight from the... living materials.

I'm handling a datasheet to plan all the information relevant to run Ke'Sha special abilities. It is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

It includes many tabs and you can see there a tab for dracoliches/lesser undead dragons, several tabs for spells, tabs for army plans, and tab for undead list.

Most undead have fixed number of HD, except some cases that HD is said "as in life" I think like archshadow, some references to archliches and few others.
But even with the fixed HD undead, there are some un-clear spell casting abilities. Some are straight forward, like djin ghul (4 3 2 1 wiz spells cast at level 7 + few innate), but Web-Spectre for example says known spells as the mage was in life, only due to unsuccessful liching it became 6HD creature... so 18th-20th level mage spells? There are also some creatures with psionics powers.

I'm sharing the page for two reasons: 1. To show the amount of effort invested in learning about the possibilities. 2. To appreciate my part in agreeing on compromises after doing all this work and initially expecting to see it applied in the game.

Having said that, I don't want such things to overshadow the game. As I mentioned before, other players have very strong abilities of their own. Being able to turn to Amber dracolich and it's lesser undead great wyrm zombie it terrifying enough.
Let's agree that I'll discuss with you about any transformation beside the common undead (spectre mostly) and the Amber dragon and we will see how much that fits to the game. But I think using "assume undead form" a lot is really part of the character of Ke'Sha and there are many undead I'd like to try.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

The group stalks the small village across the edges of the border ethereal. Silent and unseen they pass beyond the picketed palisade and wander within the woven walls of the huts as if moving through so much smoke. The guard continues his vigil, none the wiser as they locate a pair of huts that may serve their dark purposes.

Within one hut sleeps a pair of women, one older the other of middle years; perhaps an aging mother and adult daughter?
Another hut houses an adult couple and what must be their adolescent son.

Once the fate is decided, Ke'Sha clutches his holy symbol and begins his enchantment of imprisonment. Dromacus drools in delight at the soon-to-be doomed, steepling shadowy digits in a sinister display of cruel satisfaction.

The man paces idly, and as he turns his back the Halfling Necromancer completes his charm. Abruptly the guard freezes, not even seeming to breathe in the night.

The Varrangoin dry-washes his hands as a truly cruel chuckle bubbles up in his throat.

[Which group does Ke'Sha want to go for with the second Hold Person spell? the Mother-daughter pair, or the family unit (adult male, adult female, adolescent male). Do they want to do the silence or the second hold first?]
=====
After looking over some various Teleportation guidance in the splatbooks I did find a reference in "DM's Option 'High Level Campaigns" (which I have used before for adjudications on things like stoneskin) that indicates it can include other creatures, so long as the creatures and their collective items carried (incl the wiz) are within the weight capacity of the spell. So I'll revise my earlier stance on Teleport.

Allikhain's effective spell level (b/c of Binky) means she can carry a little over 1,000 lbs after counting her equipment.
After a little research it looks like there is an avg weight for trolls of about 500 lbs. So she could teleport 2 of the undead trolls.

Ke'Sha casts Hold Person on the village guard
guard save vs hold at -2 [1d20]=2, Fail!!
the Guard is Held for 34 minutes!
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Ke'Sha looks at the guard only for a moment, then whispers to Dromacus while still observing the guard, "Once we capture the mother and daughter, we will take the guard with us as well. You can have their souls as agreed." He then leads the group to the hut with the two females. For a moment he just watches them... imagining their lives... What have they done the day before? Years ago? Did they were good people? Loved ones? Did they have hard life or easy? What will they do tomorrow? What their friends and relatives think if they are gone? Who will miss them? What would they accomplish in their lives? After a moment of thought, a small stir in the older woman sleep makes Ke'Sha come to the conclusion that they would do much better under his service, he shrugs off these thoughts and with a more professional look, estimates their inner organs locations, best places for surgery cuts and minimal damage to skin.
'Let's get to works.' he thinks to himself, holding his dark symbol again towards the sleeping helpless women. The blurs of the ethereal plane screen and the power emanating from his symbol merge together into an ominous fog that surrounds the women, only to be immediately followed by another wave of force originating from Dromacus and bringing total silence with it.
Not waiting to see if the hold worked or not, Ke'Sha quickly help the group ties the women and let Bert carry them both, then he gestures to Dromacus to cast invisibility on the group, as they planed before entering the village, and they quickly go near the guard, William carries him, and move out from the village with their three captives far enough to tie the guard as well and plan their return to the ritual site.

==========================================================================================
(OOC: I'm stopping here to see if all went right.
Ke'Sha casts Hold person while in the ethereal plane, Dromacus follows with 10' silence focused on an item the Varragoind carries. Then they step out of the ethereal plane, tie the women, then Dromacus casts 10' invisibility, they take the guard and get out of the village, silent and invisible.

If no problem arises, next steps are:
1. Get the group and captives to the ritual site which is far enough from the camp to avoid suspicious eyes and ears.
2. Create the ju-ju zombies (Guard and Young girl) and a wight (older woman)
3. Summon undead, hopefully being able to control it.
4. Summon animal (up to 16HD) kill it and turn it to a zombie monster.

We can post for each sub-task separately.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

Ke'Sha ponders the lives of the two women even as he prepares to subjugate them for his own undead servants. The wistful wondering is soon followed by the conclusion that whatever way their lives would wind, they could do no better than to serve his nefarious purposes. With a final affirmation to himself, he seizes the villagers with his enchantment. The pair lie still, unable even to open their eyes.

As the group steps from the Ethereal plain the Varragoind draws upon his dark power, muting all sound in their vicinity. The hut is much too small to accommodate the Evil Halfling's Entourage, and the pupils of the nearby guard widen in terror at the sudden appearance of the monstrous trolls and the Abyssal Dromacus... He strains helplessly against the magic, hardly the barest groan able to escape his closed lips as he battles heroically to do even so much as blink. Moisture wells unbidden to the corners of his eyes as he understands all too well his helpless state. In another instant the group vanishes as if they had never been, though the mystical force restraining him remains.

The held women are easily gathered up by one of the trolls, and the guard lifted off his feet by another invisible monstrosity. The unseen Allikhain closes the man's eyelids, perhaps to prevent him from seeing more before he is fully committed to their Necromantic designs.


======
Ke'Sha casts Hold Person on two villagers
villagers save vs spell at -1 [1d20]=6, [1d20]=6, both Fail!
Two Villagers are Held for 34 minutes!
The Guard will remain held for another 33 Minutes

How do you want to do the exit from the village?
Allikhain can teleport herself and either
1: Two of the trolls (leaving the 3rd troll and the hostages with Ke'Sha)
2: All of the human hostages (leaving all the trolls with Ke'Sha)

Drommacus and Binky can fly
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

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(OOC: Can the troll carry the three humans? Can Ke'Sha as an Amber dracolich carry the troll and a victim (that the troll holds) on his back and the other two people in his hands, one at each? Can Drommacus carry one victim?
The dragon with 8HD is Juvenile, between 35'-45' with the tail. Body 19'-24'.

I read a bit and Huge size is 12'-25' and gargantuan is 25'+, so even his body is on the verge of gargantuan.
So a Huge dragon would have STR of 8HD+(3.5*5) = 25 (while gargantuan 29) and can carry 1,535 without encumbrance. I think it's enough.
I base it on: Encumbrance and Movement: https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Encumbra ... ent_(POSP)
"To calculate a monster's strength for this purpose, add 3 1⁄2 points per size category (rounded down) to the monster's base Hit Dice (ignoring plusses)."

In 5th edition:
Your carrying capacity is yourStrength score multiplied by 15.
For each size category above Medium, double the creature’s carrying capacity and the amount it can push, drag, or lift
so Huge creature are x4 and gargantuan are x8
juvenile white dragon has str 20 (in 5e) and I think it is one of the weaker dragons. So it can carry as huge 20*15*4 = 1200 pounds.

So I guess it should be safe.

If you agree I'll post accordingly.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by TristenC »

====
The info from PSOP seems good, and Drommacus could probably carry one so all that should be fine. Allikhain will teleport 2 of the Troll-Z
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Ke'Sha leads the group about three hundred feet from the village into the woods, while the Trolls carrying the captives, Allakhain and himself and the rest fly by. When they reach position, they tie the captives firmly, stuffing their mouth with cloth and cover their eyes to prevent them from moving or screaming once the hold person effect will wear off. Then Ke'Sha leaves the silence and invisibility area that follows Drommacus.
"We need to get far enough from the village and quickly enough since we still have few rituals to perform. While getting here we passed through a clearing less than a mile from the camp. We will gather there. Allakhain, you will teleport yourself, William and Bert to the meeting point. Drommacus, Binky and Gur will accompany me flying there. I'll assume the form of a Dracolich..." he pauses for a moment then continues whispering, "And carry Tom who will hold the three tied humans on my back." He looks at each one eyes making sure they understand the plan. "If you can get there stealthy, do so. We don't need these annoying Paladins sniffing around. I'll use the dracolich powers to hide my arriving as well. Once we are there, Drommacus, you can ripe their souls, and I'll will make them proper adventurers." there is a hint of satisfaction in his look than soon is replaced by practical urgency. Knowing Tom will have to ride on him, Ke'Sha casts undead alacrity on him.

Once he is sure all are set to go he prepares himself for the transformation. He madidates for a moment, holding his holy symbol close to his head, taking a piece of 'Rattle' his former skeleton assistant and crush it between his fingers, then he uses his Athame to draw a pinch of blood from his finger. He then lifts his head, vows to the lord of the undead to serve him well, put the finger above his mouth, and then simultaneously inhales the bone powder and squeeze blood drops to follow immediately into his mouth. The moment he swallows the blood, his body starts spasms rapidly, soon his arms and legs grow with sharp change followed by pain, shown clearly of his face, his chest pops, first the left side, making him look completely grotesque, then the right. A tail starts to grow from behind and all the while his face are still somewhat humanoid, yet, terribly so. The transformation is quick. Before Allakhain and Drommacus can process the situation, proportions become right, his head takes the shape of a dragon skull and the transformation completes.
Either amazed, or completely ignorant as the zombies are, only moments after the transformation started, a full size juvenile Amber dracolich stands in front of them. Magnificent and frightening.
Ke'Sha Stretches his body and waving his tail. He moves his head from side to side getting used to the new form, then open his mouth and test his voice, "Let's go." he rasps, "Try to be stealthy. Allakhain, once you teleport, start preparing the place for the ritual. We will get there shortly after you." He makes sure to leave his dragon footsteps on the floor, let Tom put the captives on his back, climb himself, secure the captives in his hold firmly and then he spreads his wings and with a strong buffet, rise up.

He makes sure the others follow by and he flies close to the trees heads to avoid being seen. Knowing they spell should easily last for the whole distance they need to go, he glides with confidence, until spotting a glimpse of the camp, then Ke'Sha casts invisibility on himself to avoid any curious guards from the camp notice him. Once he sees the clearing he circles gracefully down and with few waves of the wings stops himself before touching the ground and lands quietly.

=================================================================================
(OOC: Initially I thought 17 rounds won't be enough for the flight, but then I saw that the speed is in tens of yard, so amber dragon has flying speed 21 which is 210 yards per round which is 3570 yards per 17 rounds, which should be enough.
As the Amber dragon has wizard spells, I assume invisibility is easy to get and on top of that he took many measures of stealth.
I hope the transformation ritual was interesting enough.

Ke'Sha casts undead Alacrity on Tom and assume undead form on himself.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by Lord Torath »

I think your image link needs to end with an 'image' suffix: .bmp, .jpg, .png, .tif, etc.

I use www.imgbb.com and www.postimages.org for hosting my images. postimages is nice, since it gives you text to copy/paste right into your post.

They're free, which means they're probably using your images to train AIs on or something, but on they other hand, they're free.
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Re: BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

Post by BishGada »

Thanks.
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It seems to work!
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