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Ah, i see what you are saying.

BishGada wrote: ↑Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:55 am 1. Scouting:
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Through other planes:
So, I've discussed this option of using astral plane with TristenC few months ago and we got to conclusion that using the Ethereal plane is better described in the literature for such purpose (although it have other risks as I think there is also more literature about the Evils that dwell in the ethereal plane than the Evils on the astral plane. One thing that is remarkable on the astral plane is that it has no limit of time and range as you can instantly get anywhere, but other spells speak of "windows" to move between the planes, so it is not clear that you can use this as "teleportation" or not.) Anyhow there are few spells available to us to go through the ethereal plane I think at least for few hours. I think that Axid also have such psionic ability or something similar to plane shift.Thanks.)

Doesn't Axid know the Clairvoyance science? That is a powerful way to scout. He checks one location and then can step his way through to other locations. Say, check the other side of a door, showing you a room or a hallway or something. Then check the end of the hallway, or behind one of the doors shown in that room, and so on and so forth.

So, minions can help us in several ways that the NPC would not:
1. infiltrate enemies lines
2. trigger traps
3. carry messages to camp and back - although it might be solved with your permanent psychic connection
4. the may have special useful abilities both in fight and in exploration, such as some of them being ethereal, level draining and such.
5. the can be cannon meat on one hand, diverting the blows from our people, and some can be real additional muscle in a fight. This can be the major contribution of Ke'Sha in hard fights.
6. Using spectral senses and immbue undead with spell ability, these minions (or at least selected few) are an extension of Ke'Sha, letting him almost be at few places at once. (almost since it requires concentration to shift focus between them, not according to the spell, but according to common sense, as much as common sense holds when you are dealing with Fantasy )

About the amount - I get it that it will make the adventure "different" going with an army of undead.
On one hand this is pretty much a dominant strength of Ke'Sha character, on the other you might not like the effect on the adventure.
I thought of having between 4-6 such creatures that are capable of surviving combats we are having.
(The previous 4 skeletons and 2 monstrous zombies, barely survive 2 or 3 rounds in the only fight we had. )
If you guys rule it out before it begins, that's OK. If not, and we see it ruins the adventure, it's fine too.
I love power, (as TristenC can testify with the long search of undead domination and assume undead form) but I love better when we have fun.

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About scouting - I'm not familiar with pscionic and specifically Clairvoyance science. If it can achieve the same purpose of knowing of traps and enemies before hand, or finding shortcuts to our goals, by all means I'm for using it.
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About spells - Permanency was a joke about the title I gave 'long term spells'
Trollish fortitude let you regenerate 3HP a round.

phantom armor, different from armor, absorbs these extra damage points before disappearing. So it's Armor + extra HP and not limited in time, just by the damage.
I thought wish causing you to age, not limited wish.
There are still other good boosting spells I mentioned: Protection from <X>, endurance, firetraps etc.
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Lastly - I know it is a different from the conventional way of handling adventures, but what do you think of the plague method? It might be interesting to play it. I don't think it will be a game changer, it might give us tiny edge if it works at all, and can be a lead to funny scenes.

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I forgot to explain the humanoid thing.
There are skeletal and zombie monsters. For that you are correct that Monsters are better than humanoids. But for other undead creations: Ghouls, Ghasts, Ju-Ju zombies, mummies etc. humanoids are required. or at least creatures with similar skeletal structures (4 limbs, backbone and stuff). This is the requirement in most spells.
There are exceptions that are not well documents. If creatures die from ability drain of a real undead they turn to that undead, but do they keep their form of not. It is not mentioned. I vaguely remember that there is some way that creature die under some spell and become Ju-Ju zombies and it doesn't mention that they need to be humanoid. So Ju-Ju zombie tiger indeed can be amazing.
I guess it is because not many people play necromancers at such levels and it is usually for the sake of the monsters side, and on their side stands the DM that can do anything, so documentation if less important. (Or if some necromancers managed to create such undead, the undead killed them and they didn't have a chance to document the rituals. )

I posted this before reading the main adventure thread. So we can scratch out "plague".

Regarding Minions:
Depending on the reaction I get from my Talisman of Zagyg, I may have 16 months' worth of trap detection. (Tristan C, do you want to roll the reaction or should I?)
I'm going to say ghasts are a non-starter. Steve is not going to want to adventure with something that smells like that.
Ghouls are questionable. Mindless undead, sure, but anything that can think for itself is problematic, especially should it escape Ke'sha's control. I mean, everyone's got to sleep sometime, right?

Tristan, what happens to the spirit of someone whose body is raised as a skeleton or zombie in this campaign? Do they go on enjoying whatever afterlife they've earned, or are they pulled back and shackled to their body (which they can no longer control)?

Regarding spells:
Phantom Armor's not like Invisible Mail (CWHB), is it? Because that's a pretty pants spell for 3rd level. The first level Armor spell has the best mechanic I've yet seen in a protective spell - it gives a base AC and lasts until you take more than 8+1 hp per level of the spellcaster. It doesn't absorb damage, but blocks it entirely. I've had PCs research a higher-level version that provides better AC and still lasts for the same duration (more than 8+1 hp/level). But we're not doing spell research, so I guess that's a non-starter. Steve's got AC:4 (3 vs one attack per round), so unless Phantom Armor beats that, he'll probably pass.

Limited Wish ages the caster 1 year per 100 years of normal lifespan, which means 1 year for humans, and possibly more than Wish's 5 years for long-lived races. Better learn how to make Elixirs of Youth if you want to use either spell. And possibly research a spell to improve your System Shock rolls for when the aging kicks in.

What does Crocodile's Tears do?

Protection from Hunger and Thirst is always nice. Steve won't say 'No' to that. Huh. I wonder if that would provide protection from Insatiable Thirst (Dark Sun spell).

Protection from Fire/Cold is also always nice.

Stoneskin is something Steve would enjoy. But have you heard of the 5th level priest spell Ironskin (Dragon Kings p121)? It's like Stoneskin, but you only lose a skin if the attack would have actually hit you, and magic attacks like magic missile don't strip skins. It does cost 500 gp, so it's not a super cheap spell - but well worth it! Pairs very nicely with the Armor spell.

Succor looks good for making an escape, but... where precisely is Ke'Sha's sanctuary? Does he actually have one?

Von Gasik's refusal can be useful, especially if we need to flee a spellcaster. Of course, if they're powerful enough, they can probably by-pass it (dimension door, teleport). And Steve can facilitate quick transport to-and-from the dungeon, so we don't need to worry about securing a chamber inside.

As mentioned before, Steve would appreciate Strength and Cat's Grace, but they're unlikely to meaningfully boost his abilities (I've also researched higher levels of these spells with a +2 boost to the roll and a higher limit).

Tristan, is Lena willing to accept a permanent Mindlink with Steve? She can use her Detect Evil to know he's on the up-and-up when he suggests it. As mentioned on his Mad Mad Meatlocker entry, he's spending (would like to spend) a couple hours talking with her about the state of the Labyrinth and the party(s) currently exploring it. How is the Labyrinth lit? Are we dependent on bringing our own light with us?

Torah, Axid does have some clairvoyance and tried to explore via that route before entering the cave. This was costly and DM required checks every few feet. My intention was to scout that way (perhaps taking the amount of time outside to do that). You can read that back at the beginning. I would still be open to that method but it seems it is going to take more than that to fully explore to determine traps and such. Not sure if an ethereal exploration will reveal all sections either.

Here's some of the Clairsentient commentary from The Will and the Way (p40):

It is important to remember that clairaudience and clairvoyance can only be used on areas the psionicist has knowledge of. He cannot target his power on "wherever Uldan the mul is at this moment," or on "the sorcerer-king's throne room in Urik" if he has never been there.
Places the psionicist knows include any place he has ever been to himself, any place within his sight now, or any place he can specify. He could use clairvoyance to peek behind a sand dune, since he can tell from where he is that the sand dune has another side. He could also scan a point "10 miles directly west" or "two miles north of the central square of Urik" if he had ever been to the square. Standing outside a tower, he can
make a reasonable guess that there is a room or passageway behind any windows he can see, but he can't know the layout of the tower and use his powers against interior rooms.
However, a psionicist with a lot of PSPs could "visit" an area with clairvoyance. Once inside the tower window with clairvoyance, he can see a small room with a door. Now he may look behind the door, since he knows it exists.

Clairvoyance says you can see anything you could see if you were standing in the spot you're scrying, and you can 'turn your head' to get a full field of view.

So you should be able to see at least 60 feet, since Axid has infravision - further if the area is already lit. Not sure how "every few feet" was defined, but to my mind, it ought to be at least 60.

Admittedly, this probably doesn't include trap or secret door detection.

And while it might not save a huge amount of time (you as a dwarf can walk three times as far in a minute as you can see in the dark) it does have the benefit of being safe.

Lena will accept the mind link. You can do the roll for your Talisman of Zagyg now if you like, just make sure you are logged in on unseen servant and linked to the Labyrinth of Madness Campaign when you make the roll (Campaign ID: 1035)
We can say she has talked with him while the first group is exploring. you can pose questions in your private thread to that effect.
The dungeon has been mostly unlit. Early on Allikhain used a Continual Light spell on a rock and the party has been using that. Before Steve, only Allikhain (the human female necromancer wizard) and Jack (the human male thief) did not have infravision.

The area Axid initially used clairvoyance on was the cave entrance, which was a long hall that had many twists and turns (which are mostly what limited his vision). Over half of the checks failed but he still got some idea of how it went. Unfortunately this was well before the 'dungeon proper' and hasn't been attempted since entering (spent a lot of psps).

Skels, Zombies, ghouls, ghasts and juju zombies do not contain the souls of their original creatures, they are puppets possessed of and moved by evil spirits. Mummies, vampires, and all ethereal type undead (ghosts, spectres, banshees, etc) Are the original spirit of the creature, but corrupted and made evil by undeath.
Juju zombies are kind of special, they are not mindless, they can employ tactics and follow complex orders etc, but I have decided they are not the original souls, just that the bodies remaining are capable of more, per their MM description.
Juju zombies are always humanoid, sorry Bish no Juju tigers. Anyway it would have a lot of trouble climbing that 300 ft tall chain ladder to even get to the dungeon

About some of the spells mentioned:
Ironskin is nice. it's basically "Stoneskin" for Priests but at L5. It's rare and originally from Dark Sun setting, so Ke'Sha would have seen it before, but it is "Elemental Earth" Sphere. Currently nobody in the party has Major Access to Elemental spells. Nocturno has Minor access, but that will only allow him to use up to Level 3 Elemental spells. Ke'Sha has neither Minor nor Major.

Phantom armor (Mage L1) and Invisible Mail (Mage L3) are almost identical
Similarities: Gives beneficiary AC3, absorbs 1 hp dmg / level. doesn't stack with regular armor or other armor spells
Phantom Armor: also gives +1 to all saving throws. matl component is a small piece of mithril (10 gp worth) that is consumed.
Invisible Mail: matl component is a small piece of plate mail.

the Level disparity seems odd to me, but i suppose they tried to make up for it with rarity of material components

The most important points for the group, however are:
-Nobody in the party has the spell "Invisible Mail" so it's kind of moot.
-Only Nocturno has Phantom Armor
-components that have a gp requirement or are super rare (mithril is both) have to be listed at character creation (Noct has some, but a limited number of them)

Yeah I just went and read the 2nd page of the IC thread and saw the checks made for Clairvoyance. Looks good.

TristenC wrote: ↑Sun Nov 17, 2024 9:51 amBefore Steve, only Allikhain (the human female necromancer wizard) and Jack (the human male thief) did not have infravision.

Wait, isn't Ke'Sha from Athas? Athasian halflings don't get infravision (Dark Sun Rules Book p12, top of the second column - Original Boxed Set).

I'll post the other stuff in my private thread.

Interesting... guess I missed that Athatsian halflings don't have infravision...

Sorry Bish, Ke'Sha is going to need a light source from now on

Holy macaroni, those walls of text just crit'd me.

Can I get a TLDR version?

I wasn't aware that the camp was expecting communication during our delve. But I probably missed that.

It wasnt explicit to communicate with camp, but it seems prudent so I had an npc mention it. vanishing for days at a time in a dangerous dungeon without word might cause them to send in another batch to try to ascertain the fate of the first.

Also it makes it easier for me to add new players without obvious DM-ex machina handwaving

Torath - Axid is chiefly a psychokinetic focused Psi. Not much in the way of Clairsentience. Plus his 3 basic ability scores need to pull off psi abilities are all at 16. This makes it a challenge seeing as how all the power activation scores are like -2, -3, Add in first time playing a psi character. I figured the Lab is a death trap anyway why not try something different for sh*ts n giggles?

Holy shlamoly! Ke'Sha suddenly loses his sight and blindly stumble on a nearby rock, falling and hurting his head making everyone a bit more happy. Especially his long years familiar Gur

Phantom armor is a spell that TristenC told me about in the past and I think it is very good (even if it doesn't improve AC it still gives you extra HP and plus to saves that I forgot about), but since there is limited amount to mithril, it is up to Nuctorno. It is really not a game changer for most of our characters. I think only Allakhain has relatively low HP. And Ke'Sha wouldn't mind to make her a lich if it comes to that.

If Cairvoyance is too costly, Etherealness and co. can still be alternatives.
I just think that if we do it we shall use it's full time limit to explore as much as possible since next time we get rest is in months ahead in real life.
One of the amazing things about the astral plane is that there is no time/space flow there. You can spend million years and travel million miles (and back) on that plane while only a moment passes in the prime material plane. It essentially breaks any law and any limitation except if you meet monsters there. Any argument that it is difficult to find there things, is countered by the ability to move anywhere for how long that you want, in an instant.

I can paint a humanoid ju-ju zombie with orange stripes and make it roar like a tiger. It is convincing enough.

In 5th edition there is the concept of aiding someone with ability check, so maybe if TristenC agrees you two psionics can work together ti improve the chances of the clairvoyance if it is difficult to succeed.