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Labyrinth OOC

A classic 2e Puzzle dungeon for High Level characters
Beware, this one is substantially longer and (IMHO) even harder than the legendary Tomb of Horrors!
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TristenC
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

Lord Torath wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:05 am So define for me what an unintentional lie is so I know what to expect in the future, and how it relates to saying something you believe to to be false?

As far as intent goes, as far as I understand it, Allikhain's intent was to deceive Stephen and cover for Ke'Sha. Am I wrong there?
That was not the point, and I am quite done discussing it.


The question I have for the group now is whether the Players still think there is a path forward here
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Lord Torath »

Okay. I'll go change Stephen's dialog.

I still need to know what will and will not register to Truthear. Can someone tell me "there might be an ambush waiting behind that door." when they know there is one?
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

If someone says something they know or believe to be untrue, truthear will detect it. In the event of a power score roll it will detect an untruth even if the speaker doesn't know it is untrue.

If there is a half-truth or a finer point to be made on another statement, we can discuss it.
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Lord Torath »

Okay. Moving on.
Nocturno wrote: Fri Aug 08, 2025 8:07 am I don't remember saying anything about demons.

I only stated Jag would not continue with murdered villagers in their service.

Since it seems to be relevant, Jag would not want a demon there, but he knows enough that if he understands the terms of the demon's service, he would cautiously work with the group.
My apologies for misrepresenting Jag's position. Given that the demon was promised one of the locals' souls as payment, how would Jag feel about that?
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Nocturno »

Well that is the same as the murder scenario. Essentially.

IF he knew that, it would be unacceptable. He understands the bargains, and can respect things he doesn't "like"
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

It feels to me like we are going off the rails a bit, and I am probably partly to blame.

It seems clear to me that we need an agreement from the Players with each other on how to go forward.

What does each player feel like they Need in order for this to progress? (Not just want or wish list. What is a deal breaker to going forward)
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Nocturno »

Jack doesn't have one.

Jag will not be part of a group responsible for murder of the villagers, or the promise of their souls.
Though I don't think he knows any of this so far.

As a player, none of this is a deal breaker.
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by BishGada »

Reviving undead is a deal breaker for him, as it goes against his belief.
If pushed to expose the source of the jujus, or the bargain, it will be a deal breaker for Jag and Stephen and probably Axid. As well as privacy disrespect which is a problem on its own.
Also Stephen dismissing Drommacus will be a deal breaker for him. I don't think any character will suffer it quietly. It might not be an act of war, but it is far beyond provocation. So, pretty much a deal braker.

As a player, I feel it is a dead end and I really want to sort things out and continue with the adventure with everyone having fun.
In retrospective, would I consult with you before hand (as player or as Ke'Sha in game), which I sincerely regret I didn't, or would I not try to hide the deed (obviously you knew it as players but in game if Ke'Sha would come forward... only I already knew it is a deal breaker for some of the characters so I tried to solve it in the best way I could think of), or would you agree to round the corners and move on, we might be in a different place.

If we could find a way that Ke'Sha will have his spells (preferably all of them), the minions including a demon with a different settlement, and that he will not be looked down unto or in condescension or contempt, I'd go with it. Continuing at the current state after Ke'Sha crucifixion (that's how it feels for me) without his spells and half of his minions will ruin the game for me. Most of it by the crucifixion part. I don't want to be "the guy who was punished by the superior good people" according to their belief.

If Tristen and you all agree, maybe rewriting the history as if we discussed it before hand, and Ke'Sha found humanoid monsters instead of natives (maybe even real drows that were attacking the natives or humanoid from the Labyrinth taking the natives and sacrifice to the snake god) and the deal with the demon would be for the monsters souls (although they might taste foul) or a help on a quest required from Ke'Sha and has nothing to do with harming the company or innocent people, then it might be the easiest solution.

If we stick to 'actions have consequences' which I generally agree with as far as it is in the limits of everyone still having fun, I guess it would require understanding of Ke'Sha motives and beliefs, agreeing to respect them, agreement of Ke'Sha to respect the company (which is guaranteed) and several more days before going back into the Labyrinth (can be skipped in game). And Lena or one of her clerics will have to revive the natives when Ke'Sha is not around.

The main thing to think of is that the game should be fun.
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

I'm not a big fan of ret-cons in general, but when it seems like the entire game is coming down to a potential impasse I am forced to consider it

I have some thoughts about that, including all the details of how it could logically work within the established module, but I want to get responses from the other two players before going into that too much.

Would a ret-con where no innocents were harmed by the party be acceptable?

OR

If not, Does anyone see another option they would accept?
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Lord Torath »

Okay, so we've got Axid, Jagrinder, and Stephen (and Lena!) who believe that murder is wrong, being asked by Ke'Sha to respect his beliefs that murder is not only okay, but a good thing. But if Ke'Sha unwilling to respect the others' beliefs that murder is wrong in turn, that does seem kind of like an impasse. "I'm afraid so. I'm no match for you physically, and you're no match for my brain."

Do we want to back up to the beginning of the 4th of Reaping, after the Fire Elemental but before the abductions and murders? Again with the agreement that, even though it makes them unhappy, the 'anti-murder & undead' group is okay with raising enemy dead? That would still let Ke'Sha have the three troll zombies and the summoned spectre.

The fallout from the Fire Elemental could lead Ke'Sha to realizing he needs to be less secretive with his teammates and share his plans better. Which will then give everyone a better idea of what their fellows are willing to put up with. The 'anti-undead' group could agree to give Ke'Sha a chance at controlling any undead we encounter before going after them ourselves.

We could keep Jag, Jack, and Landro's exploration the same, except this time have Ke'Sha prepare different spells - rather than 'wasting' a ton on those for abducting and undeading locals, he could still prepare and cast those for zombifying the trolls and summoning the spectre, as well as the healing/resurrection spells he mentions being unable to memorize. It also saves Allikhain her Limited Wish.

Tristan would have to weigh in on whether or not he'd be willing to give you three drow corpses for 'free.'

How does everyone (including Tristan) feel about this?

Edit: Ninja'd by TristanC!

Here's an idea - we could have a knock-down drag-out intra-party fight, and then do the ret-con! :wink:
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

I'm glad to hear it seems like a ret-con will be acceptable

I have been compiling my thoughts and considering the module itself and I have come up with two to start. They both keep everything exactly the same up to the creation of the Zombie Trolls, Summoning of Drommacus and the Spectre: and changes the arc of the story before going to the village.

The short version of 2 options:
1) Ke'Sha never created jujus or the wight. the bargain with Drommacus was for something unrelated to souls. he gets a several spell slots back (from where he is now) and the party is in the same place but simply arguing over Drommacus' bargain

2) The jujus and wight are from Drow encountered in the cave. Drommacus' bargain was not for souls. everything else the same (spells, etc), everyone is just suspicious of Ke'Sha. But now he can truthfully say he didn't hurt innocents, which might help settle the in-game discussion


I don't want any of this to feel like a cop-out to anyone. If any of the players feel this is unjust, speak now.

If anyone has a 3rd option (like the omission of Drommacus in general) that they prefer, let us know

The reason the spells are still limited is because a dungeon module like this is always about resource management. The spell balance for option 2 is the same to account for the efforts in taking the Drow. Nobody has an infinite tap of power or ability, things have a cost and provide a benefit. It’s part of the game.

=====

Rationale:
[Providing rationale because I have an analytical mind (too much so it seems sometimes) and take things like this seriously... again probably too much so sometimes. To some of you who know me irl, I'm sure this comes as no surprise.]

Yes, there are Drow in the area. The cavern surrounding the mouth of the snake head leads to the underdark (around the 'hill' in the middle of the image). In fact, there are several drow corpses in the Labyrinth (not undead, just dead). Of course neither the party nor the players is meant to know that at this point, but maybe it will help. Also, none of them have 'those fancy cloaks', but there is some loot on them.
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going down to the area around the 'hill', or things wandering up from it is not out of the question. It could be possible for Ke'Sha and Allikhain to run into a few in the tunnels between camp and the dungeon entrance while ‘searching for raw materials’. Although a bit of a stretch, it is not impossible, and it is the simplest solution for that option.


Drommacus:
He doesn't need souls. His bargain could be reached without that, he accepted that because it was the option he liked most out of what was offered and he tried to negotiate for innocents. Ke'Sha gave in to his counter offer, but he would have accepted a higher volume of 'less pure' souls like those of monsters or evil enemies. Not sure how the rest of the party feels about that though, so maybe we should just stick to 'magic loot' or 'favors'

Drommacus also doesn't know that the party is about to go explore a large dungeon complex, so he didn't ask about magical items or spells.
He didn't need treasure or undead servants, so he discarded those options. But he might be interested in:
-Magic items or spellbooks they find along the way
-A future favor or the casting of powerful long-duration spells by Ke'Sha for his benefit
-Help defeating a rival in the abyss (for after the adventure, probably)
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Lord Torath »

Did Ke'Sha ever state what his interest was in freeing Sorril? Could his god have a quarrel with Im'Ravin's god, and that's why he's been dispatched? He's sent to embarrass the "snake god" (a guess on my part) by foiling his plot? Drommacus could even be a servant of Ke'Sha's god, and that means there's no need for payment at all. Which will go a long ways toward reassuring Stephen. Ke'Sha's god could be bound to avoid giving particular knowledge to his followers about the 'snake god', and is thus unable to help with Commune and other similar spells.

(Rats. I was hoping we could go back to the morning of the 4th so Stephen could make his first Dimension Blade gem have a powerscore of 20 so Landro would be willing to use it. Ah well. C'est la vie. :lol: )
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by TristenC »

Ke'Sha's god is the Lord of Undeath, and doesn't have any special connection to the abyss or its entities (like the Varrangoin or 'Abyssal bats'). To the followers of this god, (called Charnelists) all undead are a sacred manefestation of his power. By raising and commanding undead, Ke'Sha is literally 'doing his lord's work'.

Getting a bargain with Drommacus won't be a problem, though, with the other options.

Vytholus is of pandemonium and chaotic, with emphasis on madness and snakes. Ke'Sha's god is Lawful, and focused on unnaturally prolonging life. so they don't have much in common and would certainly have no qualms about opposing each other. That said the party only recently learned the name Vytholus but has yet to ask his god about it.
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by BishGada »

Hi. I'm glad there is a change in the path we are taking.
I just want to clarify something about:
LordTorah wrote:Okay, so we've got Axid, Jagrinder, and Stephen (and Lena!) who believe that murder is wrong, being asked by Ke'Sha to respect his beliefs that murder is not only okay, but a good thing. But if Ke'Sha unwilling to respect the others' beliefs that murder is wrong in turn, that does seem kind of like an impasse.
Ke'Sha didn't think murder is a good or bad thing. I did write several times that once he learns the others feeling he *will* respect them and won't do it again.

Regarding the suggestions, I rather have option 2 with less spells and more minions, and about Drommacus, I'm good with any other bargain. (souls is just the go to in many movies and fairytales). But for both, let's wait for the other two players.
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Re: Labyrinth OOC

Post by Lord Torath »

With Option 2, what is assumed to have happened to the drow gear? Do we have 3 drow cloaks suitable for wear by elf/half-elf sized adventurers? How about their weapons and armor? What happened to their sleep poison?
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