Labyrinth OOC

[Lord Torath]

I should'a made Stephen a melee half-giant. He wouldn't miss a strike. I keep rolling way too high!

Okay, okay, I probably haven't really been rolling that reliably high. But it feels like it lately. I bet, though, if I went and added up all Stephen's rolls, the average would probably come out around 10-11 or so.

Edit: currently averaging 11.25.

[BishGada]

Are there other means to restore drained levels?
In 5e it's just a long rest.

[Lord Torath]

Sadly, no. The Baldur's Gate II computer game introduced a 4th level Lesser Restoration spell that only fatigued the caster (and possibly the target - I forget), but we're not playing that. You might be able to get a summoned efreet to do so via a Wish, but they tend to try to twist any wishes they give. Might not be the best option. And it's always possible that Tirstan would just have the Wish duplicate the Restoration spell so you'd be aged an extra couple of years anyway. But hey, this just brings Ke'Sha closer to the point where he can be undead! He should be thrilled!

Level Draining is one of those mechanics I think was handled better in 3.X than 2E. It tends to penalize warriors more than any other group (they're the most likely to be hit in melee by level-draining critters), and it's overly difficult to undo, requiring a 7th level spell that has a hefty casting cost. But I'm not DMing, so we don't get to use my house rules for it. Moving on.

From the IC thread:

(OOC: Ke'Sha will still try to re-control his minions. He will also send one of the trolls to attack the golems. Did anyone beside Jack and Landro attacked the golems?
Having your explanation of his vast knowledge in control and that the golems are not undead, he won't try controlling them with his mind, but with his minions swords.

I was checking to see if any of your undead attacked the 'golems', but I don't think they did. Axid attempted to Detonate one, but failed his power check, and Stephen attempted to Wrench one, but also failed his power check. So none of us have managed to use a psionic power on one either. They don't show up to life detection though.

I don't think I said the 'golems' weren't undead. They could be, but they'd be really weird ones. Stephen did say they didn't seem to have physical bodies. They don't show up to his echolocation.

And speaking of Life Detection, the snake folk were detectable, so would they still show up if they went somewhere that needs more sigils than Stephen has (assuming they're still within 300 feet)? They still exist; it's just that to Stephen's mind, their location doesn't. So he'd sense them moving through solid stone, for example?

[TristenC]

They don't really do Level drain in 5e. There is 'Life Drain' like the spectre's ability which lowers 'max hp' but doesn't affect to hit numbers, hit dice or other abilities gained from levelling. There are also separate 'ability score' drains in 5e (like the Shadow's strength drain) and there is a parallel in 2e that works the same way where your strength comes back naturally over time.

While there are spells and ways to prevent contact by certain draining creatures, or to protect against a limited number of drains (Negative Plane Protection spells) As far as I know the only ways to regain lost levels from drain are:
-Restoration spell (7th level, Divine spell) one level per casting. Ages caster and recipient
-Limited Wish, one level per casting Ages caster and recipient
-Wish, one level per castint, does not age the recipient
-Time sphere divine magic that basically 'undoes' earlier events (Like 'Reversion' which is "Quest" spell, essentially epic-level spell), Ages the caster
-Magical items that duplicate the above spells
-keep adventuring and level up again

There is a reason many players feared Level Drain more than character death. Death is usually cheaper and easier to fix

[Nocturno]

Is there a time limit on undoing the drain with restoration?

[TristenC]

Sadly, no. The Baldur's Gate II computer game introduced a 4th level Lesser Restoration spell that only fatigued the caster (and possibly the target - I forget), but we're not playing that.

Oooh, yeah I forgot about that on BG2, lol. I used that a Lot in my playthroughs. Yeah that was never officially released for 2e source material as far as I know (it isn't in the PSC)

From the IC thread:

(OOC: Ke'Sha will still try to re-control his minions. He will also send one of the trolls to attack the golems. Did anyone beside Jack and Landro attacked the golems?
Having your explanation of his vast knowledge in control and that the golems are not undead, he won't try controlling them with his mind, but with his minions swords.

I was checking to see if any of your undead attacked the 'golems', but I don't think they did. Axid attempted to Detonate one, but failed his power check, and Stephen attempted to Wrench one, but also failed his power check. So none of us have managed to use a psionic power on one either. They don't show up to life detection though.

I don't think I said the 'golems' weren't undead. They could be, but they'd be really weird ones. Stephen did say they didn't seem to have physical bodies. They don't show up to his echolocation.

This is correct. So far all the various members of the party can tell they are some form of incorporeal creature, not undead, very resistant if not immune to magic. Able to be struck by at least some magical weapons (the 'weakest bonus' used so far is jack's +3 dagger)

And speaking of Life Detection, the snake folk were detectable, so would they still show up if they went somewhere that needs more sigils than Stephen has (assuming they're still within 300 feet)? They still exist; it's just that to Stephen's mind, their location doesn't. So he'd sense them moving through solid stone, for example?

or they are outside of the angle of the 'wedge' of detection as emitted through the dimensional door.

Life detection came up earlier and I'm thinking about how it interacts with different thicknesses of materials if they affect it at all. Many detection apells (and yes I know spells and psionics differ) have limitations based on materials, usually 1 yard of wood or earth, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of metal etc (such as for the Wiz spell Detect the Living).

Does anyone know if there is an official source that discusses this? I haven't found anything

Is there a time limit on undoing the drain with restoration?

Yes, 1 day/ level of the caste since the drain happened

Ke'Sha tries to remember is he could see the woman's symbols during her attack on Alrius.

She was wearing sleeves that covered her arms so he could not tell

[Lord Torath]

And speaking of Life Detection, the snake folk were detectable, so would they still show up if they went somewhere that needs more sigils than Stephen has (assuming they're still within 300 feet)? They still exist; it's just that to Stephen's mind, their location doesn't. So he'd sense them moving through solid stone, for example?

or they are outside of the angle of the 'wedge' of detection as emitted through the dimensional door.

Life detection came up earlier and I'm thinking about how it interacts with different thicknesses of materials if they affect it at all. Many detection apells (and yes I know spells and psionics differ) have limitations based on materials, usually 1 yard of wood or earth, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of metal etc (such as for the Wiz spell Detect the Living).

Does anyone know if there is an official source that discusses this? I haven't found anything

I think the only limitations are spelled out in the power description itself. Contact, after all, is not blocked by anything other than planar boundaries (and crystal spheres - Spelljammer ones). So as far as I'm aware, Life Detection isn't blocked by any material. Non-Detection and similar magics will fool it, however.

Clairvoyance/Clairaudience also are not blocked by any material.

As far as his wedge, I'm pretty sure the entire 'golem' room is within 300 feet of his location in the 'hands' room.

[TristenC]

Yeah, the only guidance I have seen is in the beginning of the Psi Handbook under "Other considerations" heading that states:

"Line of Sight: Unless the description states otherwise, psionicists require a line of sight to their target when using a psionic power. Clairsentient powers are an obvious exception, as are many of the telepathic powers which list power score modifiers for targets which are outside the psionicist's field of vision."
https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Other_Co ... ns_(CPsiH)

Given this, and the fact that "Life Detection" description makes no mention of it (i.e. "unless the description states otherwise") nor does it mention modifiers for targets outside of view that the 'other considerations' segment proposes

Contact's description clearly mentions it being usable 'beyond a door' if the creature had been seen before. Clairsentient powers are mentioned directly in the note above. But 'Life Detection' is a Telepathic discipline. So by the RAW, line of sight would be the (albeit more restrictive) appropriate ruling, unless there is some additional official clarification elsewhere. But to me it feels slightly restrictive given the ability of certain magics to 'see through' materials to a certain limited degree

[Lord Torath]

If Life Detection was written as a spell, I'm confident the range would be "zero" and the target would be "caster", with the various wedge shapes being defined as the Area of Effect. Look at things like Detect Magic or Detect Undead. The affect the caster, and not the things they let the caster see.

Life Detection gives the psionicist the ability to detect nearby creatures. It doesn't do anything to those creatures. They are not really targets of the power; the psionicist is.

[TristenC]

That's an interesting thought about the use of the term 'target', but then why would it mention Clairsentient sciences at all? And why would Detect life be a Telepathic power and not a Clairsentient one?

The spells Detect magic and Detect Undead that you offer as examples both describe not working through various thicknesses of material (1 yard wood, 1 foot stone, 1 inch of metal), and both have Range 0 and affect the caster and not the things they see. This is true for both the Arcane and Divine versions of these spells. These descriptions were the very basis for my initial question.

I was mistaken, it is actually a Divine spell called Detect Living. It operates basically the same way as the Psi power, including mentioning detection differing based on the intelligence level of things in the area of effect. It doesn't describe wedges or the like, but a 60 ft radius centered on the caster that moves with them; which would be similar to the power score effect of the psionic power. It does mention it can detect creatures 'inside objects' but makes no mention of walls or thicknesses of material. And I don't get the impression the term 'inside objects' applies to someone in an underground passage through 50 feet of solid stone.

Still, I'm considering which way this should go for this game.

[Lord Torath]

Telepathic because it detects "living, thinking creatures". It detects thought, rather than just life.

For what it's worth, the multi-DM Dark Sun game I was in didn't have it blocked by any materials. Neither did the DMs in the other two games I've played a psionicist in.

We could create a poll on Dragonsfoot if you want the input of impartial players/DMs unconnected to this game.

If it can't penetrate solid objects, it seems pretty weak. "You can only detect critters you can see." A very poor version of Detect Invisibility, since it only detects living, thinking things.

[TristenC]

It might be interesting to see what folks say, and what other relevant official resource information they can come up with. To be clear, I'm not saying 'only critters you can see'. For instance it would detect invisible creatures or life in complete magical darkness, and I would say something like light concealment (standing in the bushes or under a sheet) wouldn't block it. This is what led me to ponder the wooden door/ etc thickness of material beyond 'line of sight'.

I'm really on the fence on how far this one should go. For instance, I dont think walking into the middle of a cave system full of orcs and being able to detect every enemy within 300 feet (potentially the entire dungeon) instantly from one spot is appropriate. That seems way too powerful to me. But neither should the power be blocked by a bedsheet, imo

[Lord Torath]

Oh yes, I wasn't trying to say it wouldn't detect Invisible creatures, just that that's all it would detect. Invisible objects or invisible undead (or non-thinking creatures - gelatinous cubes, green slimes, deadly puddings, etc) don't register at all. Sorry for being unclear.

For instance, I dont think walking into the middle of a cave system full of orcs and being able to detect every enemy within 300 feet (potentially the entire dungeon) instantly from one spot is appropriate. That seems way too powerful to me.

I'm pretty sure this is the intended reading, though. Telepaths are pretty wimpy when it comes to direct combat. Like Clairscentients, their main value is avoiding or forewarning about combat - ambushes and such. Sure, Steve's got a couple of tricks he can pull to stay alive, but nothing that's going to take down anything 'level appropriate' without a lot of help from someone else.

I went ahead and created a poll: Psionics: Is Life Detection blocked by hard materials?

Probably give it a few days for people to weigh in. I will refrain from voting or commenting.

[TristenC]

Thanks, and I don't mind if you comment /vote for the purposes of this, especially if people want clarification. I may post as well in a day or two mentioning the 'line of sight' verbiage that is leading to my thoughts. But then again I expect our main points discussing this with each other will probably be made by others as well without our prompting